Posted on 03/20/2014 7:13:19 PM PDT by Rashputin
Bless his heart.
Any of the excluded groups may be included on a particular thread by extending the label, e.g. “Catholic/Orthodox Caucus” or “Cath/SV/SSPX Caucus”
Additionally, the label “All Catholic Caucus” may be used to include any Freeper who self identifies as a Catholic regardless of his attitude about the Pope, Papal Infallibility, Vatican II or Schisms or Sects.
The SSPX will be included by default in a Catholic Caucus when (and if) Bishop Fellay accepts the olive branch offered.
What makes you think I’m SSPX? Because Rasputin accused me of it?
Please check my posting history.
They probably say that about me too although I attend the Extraordinary Form in the Yakima Diocese, Washington State.
Well I attend the Masses offered by the FSSP, but that apparently won’t stop the RM from believing false accusations by others.
The issue is whether FSSP (ebb tide claiming to be a member) is so closely associated with SSPX that it ought to be excluded also - or whether it ought to be included in the general "Catholic" category because FSSP is in communion with the Pope.
Evidently the SSPX view of the FSSP/communion with the Pope is available here.
The current guideline reads:
Additionally, the label “All Catholic Caucus” may be used to include any Freeper who self identifies as a Catholic regardless of his attitude about the Pope, Papal Infallibility, Vatican II or Schisms or Sects.
The SSPX will be included by default in a Catholic Caucus when (and if) Bishop Fellay accepts the olive branch offered.
My objective is to avoid disruption on caucus threads.
What are your opinions?
This is ridiculous. The FSSP exists BECAUSE of the so-called “schismatic act” of abp. Lefebvre consecrating bishops without papal mandate. The FSSP was formed immediately following the consecrations by JPII himself in order to provide a home for traditionalists within the Church who could not in conscience continue to be members of the SSPX. The FSSP operates with proper episcopal approval everywhere it is active. Anyone who is trying to excommunicate the faithful who attend FSSP Masses is out of his mind.
Sounds like you’e proposing to lump the FSSP together with the SSPX, either in the Caucus or not. I think it’s a bad idea.
There’s no reason to include the FSSP in the Catholic Caucus “exclusion” category.
It is not in any manner affiliated with SSPX. As a point of fact, the Church establishes FSSP parishes adjacent to SSPX churches in many or most cases, so that local Catholics have a in-Church alternative to the SSPX for the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (using Roman Rite Liturgical Books of 1962). An example would be SSPX in Post Falls, ID and FSSP in Coeur d'Alene, a handful of miles apart and the closest example to me.
Notice the reference to the Bishop of Boise Diocese in the following:
St. Joan of Arc Roman Catholic Chapel is home to the Traditional Latin Mass Community located in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho operating with the approval of the Bishop of the Diocese of Boise and served by the priests of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.
http://www.stjoanarc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87&Itemid=53
“The issue is whether FSSP (ebb tide claiming to be a member) is so closely associated with SSPX that it ought to be excluded also - or whether it ought to be included in the general ‘Catholic’ category because FSSP is in communion with the Pope.”
That is a lunatic idea.
The FSSP is in good standing with the Bishop of Rome. If you start excluding genuinely Catholic groups from Catholic Caucus threads, then you've vitiated the purpose of the label. If the decision of the actual Catholic Church in communion with the actual Bishop of Rome isn't sufficient to define who is Catholic and who is not, then the meaning of “Catholic” as used in the Religion Forum becomes unmoored from reality.
As well, ebb tide is NOT a member of the FSSP (unless I've missed the fact that he is ordained or on the road to ordination). Ebb tide is a CATHOLIC. Pure and simple. No modifiers. No qualifiers. Just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill CATHOLIC.
The FSSP is a society of PRIESTS, DEACONS, and those studying to be PRIESTS and DEACONS.
Laypeople who are not in the seminary on their way to ordination are not members of the FSSP.
Furthermore, it is a society of Pontifical Right, meaning that it answers only to the pope. Is that Catholic enough? As a layperson, ebb tide is entitled to assist at Mass at any Mass celebrated publicly by priests with faculties in communion with the Church. That doesn't include the Masses offered by the SSPX, but it does include those offered by the FSSP.
My perspective was that the caucus label is meant to avoid disruption from OUTSIDERS, not internal disagreement when there are legitimate differences of opinion within the Catholic community here at FR.
What's next - throwing out "Novus Ordo" Catholics who have problems with Pope Francis? I guess I fall into that category. I assist pretty much at the ordinary form of the Mass, in the vernacular, every Sunday and holy day. But sometimes, the pope says things that strike me as foolish, poorly thought-out, badly expressed, or just plain old silly. Am I next to be excluded from Catholic Caucus threads?
Ebb tide is, as far as I can see, a devout, faithful Catholic who is critical of this pope and of Blessed Pope John Paul II. I'm unsure of his views of Benedict XVI. Contrary to popular rumor, Catholics may be critical of a pope's actions and words, as long as they submit to the legitimate, binding Magisterium of the Church. Not every utterance and action of the pope is part of the Magisterium. It's not all infallible (by a very long shot).
My suggestion is to let actual Catholics hash out these issues among ourselves.
sitetest
Years ago there were complaints that the Orthodox, who were part of the "Catholic Caucus" at the time, were disrupting thread after thread. The caucus was then split into Catholic on the one hand and Orthodox on the other, but posters could combine the two on any thread by stipulating "Catholic/Orthodox Caucus." Several Orthodox posters became so indignant about it, they left the forum altogether.
Recently, traditionalists of various stripes have been disrupting Catholic Caucus threads and in a similar hashing session, the guidelines were changed to read as shown on post #8.
Perhaps the best solution is to scrap all of it and instead leave it to the poster of the article to be specific, or not.
The difference in the labels you describe actually mirror some external reality.
The Catholic Church and the various Orthodox Churches are not in formal communion with each other. This is objective reality. That lack of formal communion exists in part because the Orthodox do not think it's a good idea to have formal communion with the Catholic Church at this point. The objective reality is that the two sets of entities distinguish themselves from each other.
“Traditionalist” Catholic groups that aren't in communion with the Bishop of Rome are, well, not entirely Catholic, or in some anomalous state vis-a-vis the Church, at least in the view of the Church of Rome.
Although I'm against excluding SSPXers from Catholic Caucus threads (the pope said that the issue of the SSPX is an INTERNAL church issue), at least there is some objective reality onto which to hang the caucus label hat - their position is not canonically regularized.
But the FSSP?!?
The FSSP are NOT outsiders to the Catholic Church IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.
You seem to agree with this statement that I made:
“My perspective was that the caucus label is meant to avoid disruption from OUTSIDERS, not internal disagreement when there are legitimate differences of opinion within the Catholic community here at FR.”
Then, why would you exclude the FSSP or those who assist at FSSP Masses? They are NOT outsiders to the Catholic Church. What differences we may have between us are INTERNAL disagreements.
sitetest
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