Posted on 04/25/2014 8:17:25 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
It’s kind of like the Pharisees and the Herodians, naturally opponents, allying the basis of, “That Galilean has to go.”
“Heaven is outside of time...”
“Prove it...”
2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen, are eternal.
The sacrifice of the mass is a time machine that takes us back in real time to be there as if we were there in the present. God is not constrained by time as we humans are. (this is biblical, not my opinion) The True Church DOES NOT offer a new sacrifice at every mass and it never has. The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was once and once only and Catholics have never believed otherwise.
The body and blood have to be literally eaten in order to fulfill the command of scripture found in John’s gospel: John 6:52 and John 6:53, etc; and “unless you eat my body (literally chew in the original language) you have no life in you.”
The Church’s liturgy was formed by this instruction, taken literally. The so called protestant Lord’s supper randomly changed the reality of the re-presented sacrifice into a metaphor or symbol 1,500 years later. The earliest Christians were warned in scripture by St. Paul that they would be condemned for eating the body withour discerning it to be the body. 1 Corinthians 11:27-29.
The Didache - written as early as 70 AD - clearly refers to the mass - including the actual change of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.
Prove that whatever was done on earth is being presently done forever in eternity.
Scripture tells us that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. THAT is what is He is doing. The verse which Catholics like to use to support Him still being slain is in the past tense. The lamb LOOKING LIKE it had been slain. Done deal. Not continually being slain. All the references to the slain lamb in that chapter are in the past tense.
Before the Consecration wine is just wine and bread is just bread.
If it was so I think Peter or John would have at least mentioned it, but I have not found them or James even saying anything about communion much less to that extent.
The Catholics believe that Peter is the rock that is the head of the Church and I believe if any one was the head of the Church it was him.
I believe Peter would have plainly spoke about the communion having to do with the actual body of Christ if it were so.
Paul is the only one who called himself an apostle who even mentioned communion and he never went as far as to say that.
But I imagine the Catholics know that if I believed that and a few other small items I would be a Catholic, on the other hand I could be a protestant if I believed every thing they believe.
“..Don’t cherry pick...”
The entire bible in context supports the concept that God exists outside of time and is not limited to human time, starting with Genesis 1:5
And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.
God created time, he is not bound by time. See: 2 Peter 3:8
One day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Peter is discussing the day of the Lord’s judgment (the second coming); however his explanation that the Lord’s time is not ours holds true as a fact regardless of the subject matter under discussion. This is in alignment with Moses’ psalm 90 - again cross referencing the psalm that Peter would have been familiar with - not random cherry picking. Also:
Revelation: 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. Since God is all of these at the same time, He is outside of time.
See also Moses Psalm 90
Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. This is correct. The witnesses at mass can be in the spirit at the original sacrifice, and at the same time Jesus is still seated at the right hand. See the above. God’s ways are not our ways.
Also - the old testament prophets foresaw the future because the Holy Spirit allowed them to see into the future - this is another example that God is NOT bound by the temporal laws. This is not cherry picking - this is scripture in it’s context of explaining God’s omnipotent and omniscient nature.
“Not continually being slain”
The Catholic Church does not continually slay the lamb. This is a falsehood. I repeat - the Church does not continually slay the Lamb of God at mass.
This is not factual and an erroneous statement. A person who is not Catholic is not a position to state what Catholics believe, especially when they get it completely wrong.
Great post!
It depends on the Catholic you talk to.
Each one their own little pope.
You still didn’t prove that what happens here on earth in time is being eternally played out in heaven forever.
Well said. It has fallen on some deaf ears, but that does not alter the fact that it is spot on.
And the church is His body.
Ephesians 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
The Catholic Church just takes verses out of context and gives them the meaning they need to maintain supremacy and control.
" And the church is His body.Uh... we all believe this."Ephesians 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."
"Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,"
So, what was the problem, again?
Don’t Catholics believe in eating the body of Christ?
Yes! Now you got it!
So Catholics are really eating each other? Wow!
Talk about getting munchy. Since you're a member of the Body of Christ, we're eating you, too. Such an odd diet, hey? 'Splains a lot!
What I said is not Wrong, you are in error, period. You have not looked at anything I said above, you ignored it. You are not re-sacrificing him, you are reliving the same moment in time at his death. God is timeless, God can do what he wants and this is what he has commanded us and yet you ignore HIS words and twist them to meaning something else. Oh, and I just love how you have twisted your last sentence to me and mixing up dying and death and resurrection. And where did I say it was his dying? Where did I imply it? You sir/madam have bared false witness against me and what I said. You know if your going back to that same moment in time, we are ultimately witnessing his death not his dying that is just common sense. Its logical, it requires a little intellect and yet you apply non of it here, not because you are not capable, but because you do not want to. You are in open rebellion against His word and your soul deep down knows it. The Church has always taught that it is his death and his resurrection that we are free to be with him, provided we love by keeping his commandments. And of course that is the caveat in all this. Do you understand the Death and Resurrection? Do you understand what lead up to it? Do you understand why it was going to happen from the very beginning of creation itself? Do you understand that there is meaning so deep behind the Death and Resurrection that even a countless life times of study and writing still could not do justice to what our Lord did to secure our salvation? Do you really? Your words and statements ring hollow like you are dead on the inside. You have no life in you.
And what is Done? Well Jesus’s work is done, NOT ours. We need him in us to sustain ourselves during our battles until our end. The war maybe over, but there are plenty of battle for us to fight and have the obligation to fight as they arise otherwise the causalty list will be severe(I wonder, do you understand what I am actually trying to say here? We shall see). Jesus showed us the path, it is up to everyone of us individually to either accept him or reject him. By denying his own words you deny him, and that is not good for your soul. That is the way it is. May you see His truth before it is to late for your soul.
God cannot do *what He wants*. That's a false premise so your whole argument falls apart before it begins.
The *sacrifice of the mass* is NOT *reliving the moment of His death*.
Jesus was killed by hanging on a cross, not on a nice tidy altar. There was blood all over the place, not a *bloodless* sacrifice* which does no good because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.
We are not time traveling.
Its logical, it requires a little intellect and yet you apply non of it here, not because you are not capable, but because you do not want to. You are in open rebellion against His word and your soul deep down knows it.
No, it's not *logical*. It makes no sense and you cannot read my mind so stop trying.
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
The Church has always taught that it is his death and his resurrection that we are free to be with him, provided we love by keeping his commandments.
And that's where the *church* is wrong. We are saved by grace through faith NOT OF WORKS. The church that teaches that is preaching a different, false gospel.
Your words and statements ring hollow like you are dead on the inside. You have no life in you.
2 Corinthians 2:15-16 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?
I think your teaching expressed in your comments is in contradiction with the Scripture posted here. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.”
~C.S. Lewis
“...Each one their own little pope...”
Cafeteria catholics who pick and choose which doctrines they will follow (exempli gratia: Pelosi, Cuomo, Kennedy clan, etc.) are not de facto catholics. The Doctrines of Truth that are guarded by the Catholic Magisterium do not change and never have - some have required more precise definitions when under attack from heresies and other confusion; however the Truth has never changed. A catholic who thinks they can pick and choose and “be his own pope” is a CINO, or Catholic in Name Only.
“You still didn’t prove that what happens here on earth in time is being eternally played out in heaven forever...”
This is a distortion. Of course I didn’t prove that because that wasn’t the issue. The issue was that God the Trinity is outside of time and is not bound by time.
Scripture says that Christ told us to “Do this in remembrance of me” (Luke 22:19). The Greek word used for remembrance was anamnesis that is literally translated as re-presentation in the sense of making present once again in the here and now. And what is the “this” we are commanded to do? John 6:54 Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. This is a command, not a suggestion and not a symbol.
The moment of crucifixion is not being played out eternally in heaven and I never suggested this. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. Instead, the witnesses at the mass are brought back in time to the actual sacrifice of the crucifixion because God can do this. He can bring us back to something that happened in the past as it actually happened because He is outside if time, as is explained in scriptures.
Look at 1 Corinthians 10:16. St. Paul says The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? This is not a symbolic participation because of John 6:53. Therefore, a true anamnesis requires the actual body and blood of Christ to become present in the former bread and wine. Jesus turning the water into wine at the wedding in Canaa was a foreshadowing of His powers to change substances.
The prophets were sent in time by the Holy Spirit to the future so they could prophesey. This illustrates that God the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of making time do His bidding. The Church does not sacrifice the Lamb of God again - rather, we are brought by the Holy Spirit to be at the foot of the cross - at the time that it happened.
That's not cool.
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