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Scripture and Tradition
Catholic.com ^ | August 10, 2004 | CatholicAnswers

Posted on 06/09/2014 9:26:16 PM PDT by Salvation

Scripture and Tradition

Protestants claim the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God. 

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. 

In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: "The Word of God"), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. 

"Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence." 

But Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants, who place their confidence in Martin Luther’s theory of sola scriptura (Latin: "Scripture alone"), will usually argue for their position by citing a couple of key verses. The first is this: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31). The other is this: "All Scripture is 
inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16–17). According to these Protestants, these verses demonstrate the reality of 
sola scriptura (the "Bible only" theory). 

Not so, reply Catholics. First, the verse from John refers to the things written in that book (read it with John 20:30, the verse immediately before it to see the context of the statement in question). If this verse proved anything, it would not prove the theory of sola scriptura but that the Gospel of John is sufficient. 

Second, the verse from John’s Gospel tells us only that the Bible was composed so we can be helped to believe Jesus is the Messiah. It does not say the Bible is all we need for salvation, much less that the Bible is all we need for theology; nor does it say the Bible is even necessary to believe in Christ. After all, the earliest Christians had no New Testament to which they could appeal; they learned from oral, rather than written, instruction. Until relatively recent times, the Bible was inaccessible to most people, either because they could not read or because the printing press had not been invented. All these people learned from oral instruction, passed down, generation to generation, by the Church. 

Much the same can be said about 2 Timothy 3:16-17. To say that all inspired writing "has its uses" is one thing; to say that only inspired writing need be followed is something else. Besides, there is a telling argument against claims of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. John Henry Newman explained it in an 1884 essay entitled "Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation." 

 Newman’s argument

He wrote: "It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy. 

"Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith." 

Furthermore, Protestants typically read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context. When read in the context of the surrounding passages, one discovers that Paul’s reference to Scripture is only part of his exhortation that Timothy take as his guide Tradition and Scripture. The two verses immediately before it state: "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:14–15). 

Paul tells Timothy to continue in what he has learned for two reasons: first, because he knows from whom he has learned it—Paul himself—and second, because he has been educated in the scriptures. The first of these is a direct appeal to apostolic tradition, the oral teaching which the apostle Paul had given Timothy. So Protestants must take 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context to arrive at the theory of sola scriptura. But when the passage is read in context, it becomes clear that it is teaching the importance of apostolic tradition! 

The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). 

This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). 

And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ’s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion. 

Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. "’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been "preached"—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be 
supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority. 

This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry. 

What is Tradition?

In this discussion it is important to keep in mind what the Catholic Church means by tradition. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different. 

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Churchs. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13). 

 Handing on the faith

Paul illustrated what tradition is: "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed" (1 Cor. 15:3,11). The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2). 

The first Christians "devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching" (Acts 2:42) long before there was a New Testament. From the very beginning, the fullness of Christian teaching was found in the Church as the living embodiment of Christ, not in a book. The teaching Church, with its oral, apostolic tradition, was authoritative. Paul himself gives a quotation from Jesus that was handed down orally to him: "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). 

This saying is not recorded in the Gospels and must have been passed on to Paul. Indeed, even the Gospels themselves are oral tradition which has been written down (Luke 1:1–4). What’s more, Paul does not quote Jesus only. He also quotes from early Christian hymns, as in Ephesians 5:14. These and other things have been given to Christians "through the Lord Jesus" (1 Thess. 4:2). 

Fundamentalists say Jesus condemned tradition. They note that Jesus said, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3). Paul warned, "See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ" (Col. 2:8). But these verses merely condemn erroneous human traditions, not truths which were handed down orally and entrusted to the Church by the apostles. These latter truths are part of what is known as apostolic tradition, which is to be distinguished from human traditions or customs. 

 "Commandments of men"

Consider Matthew 15:6–9, which Fundamentalists and Evangelicals often use to defend their position: "So by these traditions of yours you have made God’s laws ineffectual. You hypocrites, it was a true prophecy that Isaiah made of you, when he said, ‘This people does me honor with its lips, but its heart is far from me. Their worship is in vain, for the doctrines they teach are the commandments of men.’" Look closely at what Jesus said. 

He was not condemning all traditions. He condemned only those that made God’s word void. In this case, it was a matter of the Pharisees feigning the dedication of their goods to the Temple so they could avoid using them to support their aged parents. By doing this, they dodged the commandment to "Honor your father and your mother" (Ex. 20:12). 

Elsewhere, Jesus instructed his followers to abide by traditions that are not contrary to God’s commandments. "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2–3). 

What Fundamentalists and Evangelicals often do, unfortunately, is see the word "tradition" in Matthew 15:3 or Colossians 2:8 or elsewhere and conclude that anything termed a "tradition" is to be rejected. They forget that the term is used in a different sense, as in 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15, to describe what should be believed. Jesus did not condemn all traditions; he condemned only erroneous traditions, whether doctrines or practices, that undermined Christian truths. The rest, as the apostles taught, were to be obeyed. Paul commanded the Thessalonians to adhere to all the traditions he had given them, whether oral or written. 

 The indefectible Church

The task is to determine what constitutes authentic tradition. How can we know which traditions are apostolic and which are merely human? The answer is the same as how we know which scriptures are apostolic and which are merely human—by listening to the magisterium or teaching authority of Christ’s Church. Without the Catholic Church’s teaching authority, we would not know with certainty which purported books of Scripture are authentic. If the Church revealed to us the canon of Scripture, it can also reveal to us the "canon of Tradition" by establishing which traditions have been passed down from the apostles. After all, Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) and the New Testament itself declares the Church to be "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials 
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. 
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004 

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted. 
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; tradition
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To: dartuser

**God has defined it ... in the scriptures.**

But where did the Scriptures come from?

From people telling the stories about happenings both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Holy Tradition>Bible


41 posted on 06/10/2014 8:25:22 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Faith Presses On

And how did they get these stories?

From what people (inspired by the Holy Spirit) told the Apostles, the evangelists, all the writers.


42 posted on 06/10/2014 8:27:12 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Radio) the hosts said that Mary was the spiritual leader in the Holy Family and Joseph “would have understood.” They repeatedly talked of how Mary instructed Jesus in spiritual matters. Yet the Bible says the MAN is the spiritual head of the family! Time and time again I’ve seen that when the Bible and Catholic tradition (the priesthood) conflict it is “apostolic tradition” that comes out on top.


43 posted on 06/10/2014 8:30:54 AM PDT by Faith Presses On
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To: dartuser
Neither ... God has defined it ... in the scriptures. The scriptures are sufficient for salvation, you do not seem to believe that.

Not so fast. Where in Scripture does it say that the Scriptures are sufficient for salvation? And what are we to make of the following:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)
Is Baptism necessary for salvation? An important question, no? Even Protestants cannot agree on this.

Are you an elder? Have you been vetted through the elder qualifications listed in 1 Tim, 2 Tim, Titus, 1 Pet? And are you in agreement with our doctrinal statement? I suspect that at least some of these would disqualify you (mostly the doctrinal statement).

And by what right does anyone at your congregation have to declare themselves the church and vet those who would proclaim the gospel? And if your local congregation has this authority why did not the full church at the time of Luther and Calvin not have the authority to prevent them from preaching?

44 posted on 06/10/2014 8:31:28 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Salvation

While I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, I do not follow the doctrine of “I’m right because I say so and if you don’t agree then you are killed or cast out.

Further not supporting the doctrine of “I’m Right” is the doctrine of what I said before was right at the time but now what I said prior was wrong and what I am saying now is right!!! So pay no attention to what I said previously!!!!


45 posted on 06/10/2014 8:42:46 AM PDT by tired&retired
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To: Faith Presses On

**Catholic tradition (the priesthood)**

The priesthood is not the definition of Holy Tradition.

From the article for the second time:

What is Tradition?

In this discussion it is important to keep in mind what the Catholic Church means by tradition. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Churchs. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13).


46 posted on 06/10/2014 8:45:28 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: tired&retired

??


47 posted on 06/10/2014 8:46:42 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Petrosius

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)”

The baptism Mark speaks of is not the baptism of water that John the Baptist did, but the Baptism of Spirit that Jesus does. When one receives the “Baptism of Spirit” they begin to perceive Jesus all the time and experience His Love at all times. It is not intellectual theory. This experience is also the real Communion. Just as Jesus and His Father became One, We become One with Jesus. And, As the Father that exists in Jesus exists in us also, as we exist within Jesus. That realization experience is the real “Communion.”

When you receive this Baptism of Spirit you begin to perceive your reality from your own soul or spirit rather than being limited to your physical senses. This is why Jesus said to His disciples when He sent them out... “The things that I do and more you too shall do in my name.”

Show me man who can do some of the things that Jesus did and I will show you a man that is Baptized in the Spirit of Jesus. There is a big difference in the baptisms.


48 posted on 06/10/2014 8:55:41 AM PDT by tired&retired
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To: Steelfish

The Bible says that by the Word of God was everything made that was made, and the Word of God will not return to Him void, but will accomplish His will. And Jesus spoke of people swearing by the gift on the altar, when it was the altar that made the gift holy. The point is that the Catholic Church has given too much unquestionable authority to the Catholic priesthood, that they are even above God’s Word and are said to be its authors, or co-authors. But God’s Word was in control. If Esther hadn’t risked her life, salvation would have come to the Jews another way. God “needs” no one. While the Bible says the Lord is the answer, and the same is said by those who follow it, the Catholic priesthood says it’s the answer. Paul also chastised a church for not maturing to be teachers by that point. That is for every believer, to be a priest of the Lord. While there are types of legitimate authority, the Catholic priesthood is like a false god.


49 posted on 06/10/2014 8:56:06 AM PDT by Faith Presses On
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To: Petrosius
Let us not quibble over the exact number of Protestant denominations. There is clearly division and discord among those who call themselves Protestant.

There were clearly divisions in the early churches. They held councils to root out heresy. The creeds were created to clearly outline the necessary belief to be considered orthodox (right-glory) Christians.

Creating the creeds was not easy or straight forward. If you look at the content of the creeds, that was the entirety of Christian unity. Outside of these creeds, there was a wide variety of traditions and beliefs that they could not reconcile.

50 posted on 06/10/2014 8:59:44 AM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Petrosius
Some of this has to wait till later

And what are we to make of the following: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

I'm sure you know of the textual issue in the ending of Mark's gospel. If the best textual scholars are unsure that Mark 16 is genuine, then I will read it as genuine but will never use Mark 16 to support any doctrinal view. If the doctrine is taught elsewhere in scripture then I will develop the evidence from that instead. Sound reasonable?

I'm sure you wouldn't espouse snake handling or drinking formaldehyde based on this chapter would you? Nor would I.

There are many many places in scripture where salvation is mentioned. Sometimes this aspect is mentioned, sometimes another is mentioned. However, since there cannot be any contradiction in scripture ... all together they must espouse one way. If in one passage it is absolutely clear what is required, and the other place is not ... then I would argue that clarity is the dictate.

I see lots of places where salvation is mentioned ... it would take lots of time to list them all. But they all taken together must espouse one way.

So, for example, what are we to make of Romans 10 in light of Mark 16?

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (Romans 9:8-10

This passage doesn't mention baptism, which passage is correct? Mark 16 or Romans 10?

51 posted on 06/10/2014 9:10:51 AM PDT by dartuser
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To: Salvation

I’m already familiar with that. Just read from “the truth of the faith has been primarily given...” That’s the point. The Bible says Jesus is the foundation of faith, but the Catholic Church (priesthood) says Christ AND the Catholic Church leaders are the foundation.


52 posted on 06/10/2014 9:12:18 AM PDT by Faith Presses On
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To: Faith Presses On

Christ gave Peter and his successors to establish ONE Truth, ONE Church, ONE authority. Following the evil of Protestantism, we now have each person and every corner street pastor from Rev. Jeremiah Wright to the insufferable Joel Osteens of this world to say nothing of Jim Jones and David Koresh, as preaching the “authentic” word of God. This is the scandal that plagues modern day Christianity.

“You” say what the Bible says, and so does Rev. Al Sharpton. By these lights everyone has free license to interpret Scripture. The books in the Bible did not fall from the skies. They were authenticated by the early Church Fathers. This authority to discern this central truth continues today and until the end of time. Outside the Church, the rest of Christianity is all apostasy.


53 posted on 06/10/2014 9:28:13 AM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: dartuser; Petrosius

Is 1 Pet 3:21 of dubious origin as well?


54 posted on 06/10/2014 9:46:31 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: dartuser; Petrosius; Salvation
The scriptures are sufficient for salvation, you do not seem to believe that.

Believe it? I'm not even sure I understand it!

This exemplifies one problem with the FR religious donnybrooks: Terms and language are unclear and meanings are by no means "perspicuous."

I would say that the Scriptures without IHS are not "sufficient for salvation," while, if HE will it, IHS with or without the Scriptures is sufficient. The phrase is subject to interpretation and some clarifications needs to happen before one can go into a reasoned or fruitful examination of the questions.

Dartuser says as to the one faith
God has defined it ... in the scriptures.

Is there no disagreement about WHAT the one faith IS, even among those who agree that "God has defined it in the Scriptures"?

How are disagreements to be resolved? What is to be done when disagreements persist?

What, in practical terms, in terms of who is in and who is not, in terms of who is a teacher upon whom one can rely and who is not, ... what is the difference between, "That does (or does not) comport with Scripture," and "I think that does (or does not) comport with scripture"?


In related news, it seems that it two places Paul presents various ministries, gifts, and calls. Not every gift is given to every person. It would SEEM that not all are teachers.

What then are those who are not teachers? Mustn't they be students, disciples,'those who are taught?'

How is the neophyte, the newly converted, to know to whom to go for reliable teaching -- since there is such great disagreement about teaching that there are many bodies all teaching differently at least somewhat?

We disagree about HOW to read Scripture, about what books are comprised in the term, about the ways to interpret, say, the Letter of James. One group makes a system which struggles to account for everything THIS way, and another, with the same intention and claims, comes up with a different account. BOTH groups say that the members of the other group haven't read Scripture correctly.

I don't see how the Scriptures are sufficient to resolve this.

55 posted on 06/10/2014 9:53:00 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: Salvation

I know.... but there is far more wisdom to the scriptures than most people realize.

Matthew 7: 6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds;(F) and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Mankind has barely scratched the surface in understanding.


56 posted on 06/10/2014 10:06:17 AM PDT by tired&retired
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To: FourtySeven
Is 1 Pet 3:21 of dubious origin as well?

I know of no textual issue with that passage. Do you?

That would be one that would have to be compared with the simple command to repent and believe ... yes.

Can you explain what Peter meant by "not the removal of dirt from the body" >??

57 posted on 06/10/2014 10:28:29 AM PDT by dartuser
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To: ealgeone
Proof required.

So go ahead and prove me wrong.
Check it on the Internet.

58 posted on 06/10/2014 10:39:41 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: dartuser
So, what you are saying is that for some 1500+ years ALL Christians, that is, ALL Catholics were "apostate"?? You're under the mistaken impression that there were only Roman Catholics for the first 1500+ years. And no, that is not what I am saying. I believe (I know some) that there are genuine Christians among the Roman Catholic religion, just as there are genuine Christians among the Protestant denominations, perhaps even one or two Baptists lol ... but I also know that they did not become Christians by following the ordinances of the RCC, just as the Protestants did not become believers by reciting a prayer when they were 5. They became believers in Christ by reading, hearing the scriptures and heeding the command to 'repent, believe, call on Him as Lord' ... My, that IS a sweeping generalization and condemnation of BILLIONS of souls over 1500+ years. And yet you would have no issue believing all the Jews have been lost since the time of Christ right? Well, at least, dartuser, you are staying true to your "protesting" faith, whichever one of the 30,000 different "protesting" one it is. There is only one faith ... as per Ephesians 4.5 If you read the entire context, you will see that the basis for unity here is truth. What truth? Doctrinal truth. Paul is telling us that these 7 truths about doctrine are the foundation that the apostles and prophets taught, that evangelists carry, that pastors and teachers today proclaim. The purpose, to make us mature in Christ. Do I believe there are Catholic Christians, yes. Do I believe they will ever become mature in the faith by remaining in the RCC, no.

So YOU become the judge and jury of who will and won't become mature. Lol. The Catholic Church was around 1500 years before the Reformation. They will be around while the Protestants form another several thousand different denominations.

And that's okay with me. I look to God to sort it all out. He is, after all, the One who created our ability to diversify so much, as exemplified by the thousands of different Protestant denominations.

I put my trust in our Good Lord, as always. HE is the final judge.

59 posted on 06/10/2014 10:46:38 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: dartuser; Petrosius
Can you explain what Peter meant by "not the removal of dirt from the body"

I will try, but this will not be official Church teaching on the matter just as a disclaimer.

Here, St. Peter appears to be alluding to the water used in Baptism, as he alluded to the water of the Great Flood previously.

He is saying the water used in Baptism is not used to wash away dirt, rather to wash away Original Sin, and thus, is required for salvation.

Now, I believe a more important point you should address is the point Petrosius made previously, before your discussion with him got side tracked into the dubious nature of Mark 16:9-20, which is, "Where in Scripture does it say that the Scriptures are sufficient for salvation?"

You also said in your reply, "Some of this will have to wait until later", so I would hope that question of Petrosius' will be addressed in a later post of yours.

Regards,

60 posted on 06/10/2014 10:46:48 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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