Skip to comments.Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity]
Posted on 06/26/2014 11:27:30 AM PDT by Colofornian
Mass confusion is still extant pertaining to three key Christian words -- each related to "ministry" and those who serve God:
Each of these words have, unfortunately, been largely skewed by the historical Church: The first two by Roman Catholicism; the latter by Protestantism.
'Holy Priesthood...Royal Priesthood'
No New Testament-based Church can neglect 1 Peter 2:4-9 and Revelation 1:5-6 plus Revelation 5:10 in its definition of "priesthood."
In 1 Peter 2, the "holy priesthood" (verse 5) and the "royal priesthood" (verse 9) are described as a privilege presented to those who...
...come to Christ (verse 4);
...are chosen by God (verse 4);
...are precious to God (verse 4);
...make up God's "spiritual household" (verse 5);
...are God's "people" (verse 9);
...are a "holy nation" (verse 9);
...are God's "special possession" (verse 9);
..."declare the praises of" God (verse 9)
Here are the specific verses cited in context:
4 As YOU come to him, the living Stonerejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him 5 YOU also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,
8 and, A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.[d] They stumble because they disobey the messagewhich is also what they were destined for.
9 But YOU are a chosen PEOPLE, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a HOLY NATION, Gods special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a PEOPLE, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
The obvious questions then arise when reading these passages: Do only males...
...come to Christ?
...become objects of His chosen ones?
...become valued as "precious" by God?
...become His "special possession"?
...declare God's praises?
And exactly what kind of a "spiritual household" would such a "household" be if it excluded females?
Is Peter's reference to God's people in verse 9 gender-restricted? What kind of a "people" would that be?
What is a "holy nation" that is gender-homogenous?
Or what is a "kingdom" that constitutes males only? (see Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 5:10 for context)
Is 'Ministry' -- a word that simply means 'Service' -- best reflected within a hierarchical structure? Or, rather, as Christ Himself served, being a bond-servant of Him?
In the New American Standard Bible, which strives more toward a fairly literal translation...
...Peter referenced Himself as a "bond-servant" of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1).
So did James (James 1:1).
So did Jude (Jude 1).
So did Paul (Titus 1:1; 2 Cor. 4:5, etc.), who also included Timothy in that description (Phil. 1:1).
Paul also labeled Epaphras (Col. 1:7) and Tychicus (Col. 4:7) as such.
And the apostle John uses the phrase nine times in the book of Revelation (1:1; 2:20; 7:3; 11:18; 15:3; 19:2,5; 22:3,6).
Finally, Paul even describes Jesus Himself as a "bondservant" (Phil. 2:7)!
What is a "bond-servant?" Well, the New American Standard version also highlighted its more literal usage: A bond-servant of Jesus Christ is simply a bondslave of Jesus Christ (see Col. 4:12 re Epaphras reference; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:16)
At the time the apostle Paul wrote his letter to those in Christ at Rome, about one-third of the Roman world was slaves...bond-servants.
And it's no coincidence that Peter references "bondservant" just seven verses (1 Pet. 2:16) after his "royal priesthood" reference (v. 9): Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God."
You see, the common notion of "priesthood" has been historically skewed by layers of ecclesiastical bureaucracy. The "priesthood" isn't "one-upsmanship" in terms of service. The very words "ministry" and "service" is what is provided by the Bondslaves operating from a spiritual posture on their knees; not ecclesiastical "magistrates" administratively "lording" it over others.
This is why both the feminist rebellion verses a Biblical understanding of spiritual submission within the Church at-large
-- along with the historical notions to place both "priesthood" and "ministry" as "higher levels"
... via the decidely unbiblical notion of "ordination" --
...have both run off-base courses.
NOTE: "Clergy"-"Laity" distinctions in the ways they've come to be interpreted within Protestantism and other church traditions are extrabiblical traditions; "ordination" is merely a biblical word tied to the decrees of God but has no verse-by-verse Biblical underpinnings re: "THE ministry."
Being a bond-servant -- a bondslave -- is submission; is servanthood.
Likewise, the vocabulary of "Sainthood" also suffered within history and unto modern times in much the same way as "priesthood" and "the ministry"...reducing these levels to the "very few" and "spiritually elite." (NOTE: Satan has always desired to reduce his battle to a mere few)
"Saints" simply literally means "holy ones" -- those set apart to serve our Lord. In other words, ALL of us who are in Christ. We are ALL set apart for holy service, bearing the Holy Spirit within each of us.
When the apostle Paul referenced the church in greetings and other references, he highlighted ALL of them as "saints":
"but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints." (Romans 15:25)
"For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." (Romans 15:26)
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1)
"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father." (Col. 1:2)
"But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;" (Eph. 5:3)
'Ordained' or 'Ordination' for Ministry
In the New Testament, you'll find the Greek word for "ordained" twice...and both are applied to the Law of God...not to special leadership capacities. "Ordination" as a word isn't otherwise in the New Testament.
Landing Point: The Reformation and 'Priesthood of All Believers'
Allow me to quote from Wikipedia: Universal Priesthood (doctrine):
"While Martin Luther did not use the exact phrase 'priesthood of all believers", he adduces a general priesthood in Christendom in his 1520 To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation in order to dismiss the medieval view that Christians in the present life were to be divided into two classes: 'spiritual' and 'secular'. He put forward the doctrine that all baptized Christians are 'priests' and 'spiritual' in the sight of God:
"That the pope or bishop anoints, makes tonsures, ordains, consecrates, or dresses differently from the laity, may make a hypocrite or an idolatrous oil-painted icon, but it in no way makes a Christian or spiritual human being. In fact, we are all consecrated priests through Baptism, as St. Peter in 1 Peter 2[:9] says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings.'"
Two months later Luther would write in his On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520):
How then if they are forced to admit that we are all equally priests, as many of us as are baptized, and by this way we truly are; while to them is committed only the Ministry (ministerium Predigtamt) and consented to by us (nostro consensu)? If they recognize this they would know that they have no right to exercise power over us (ius imperii, in what has not been committed to them) except insofar as we may have granted it to them, for thus it says in 1 Peter 2, "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom.' In this way we are all priests, as many of us as are Christians. There are indeed priests whom we call ministers. They are chosen from among us, and who do everything in our name. That is a priesthood which is nothing else than the Ministry. Thus 1 Corinthians 4:1: 'No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God.'"
Other Notable Biblical Considerations
1 The apostle Paul listed spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. They are not gender-specific. Thus, ministry is carried on by the Holy Spirit operating thru both men and women operating as the Laos (Greek for laity) -- the "people" of God.
2 In the New Testament, we find female prophetesses in Luke 2:36 (Anna) & Acts 21:8-9 (evangelist Philip's four daughters). In some current religious cultures -- like the Mormon Church -- Philip and his four daughters might frankly be ex-communicated in a such a sub-culture! Faith investigators may want to be careful in "faulting" the Holy Spirit for giving this gift to females in those circumstances, or other spiritual gifts that the apostle Paul highlighted in numerous New Testament passages.
3 Israel was quite comfortable with Deborah serving as a Judge-leader; and an entire Old Testament book (and ensuing Purim recognition amongst Jewish believers) is devoted to Esther serving as an intercessor where no man had the inroad (or seeming courage) to proceed?
Are we informed worldview-wise by the Bible? Or overrun by mere "tradition?"
YHvH's need for a priestly class ended in 70 CE,shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
when He permitted the destruction of His Temple.
I doubt a RC would go along with the premise smuggling of “mere” tradition.
The world observes and ‘reformers’ too worship the pope gregory calendar, the pope’s sabbath(most) and pope’s holy days...
All unbiblical..and all will be defended and explained away by ‘reformers’..
If a reformation starts, it should start with reformers admitting they ‘worship’ from the false premise of the greco roman latin mother church’s teachings or practices...
If the first reformers believed the papacy was the antichrist-
How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s calendar?
How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s sabbath?
How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s
Apparently the answer is - very comfortable...
Each of these words have, unfortunately, been largely skewed by the historical Church: The first two by Roman Catholicism; the latter by Protestantism.
And then by MORMONism!!!
Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:
AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.
AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.
APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.
CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.
ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.
EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.
ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.
GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.
GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.
HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.
JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.
JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.
MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.
MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.
POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.
PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.
PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.
PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.
SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".
SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.
SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.
SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.
SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.
STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.
TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.
TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).
VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.
WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
I’m not sure I get the point of all this. Like ancient Israel, the Catholic Church has a priesthood for all the baptized and a select priesthood (actual ordained priests).
(As if this gets strongly -- or even weakly -- communicated to the Catholic grassroots...not that the Protestant branches do all that much better, mind you...in either communication, practice, doctrine, policy, and actual fleshing out)
Delchiante, let's just for a moment grant your premises above...Let's say that every poster in this thread might somehow agree with your historical purview that such as stated above was based upon...let's see...how did you frame the above...oh, yeah...based upon...
...that which is...
OK, then...THEN let's ask -- and actually expect -- a candid response from you on these ensuing questions:
I take it, then, Delchiante, that you're wholly 100% consistent on your approaches to days devoted to false gods, right?
...we in this thread also thereby assume...
...that you tear out most January --> June months of your calendars ['cause their names are derived from false gods]... [And you refuse to likewise use any cell phone or other digital calendar that does the same]
...and, of course, you never reference those names in your everyday talk -- unless of course, you're bringing up their pagan references...
...and, of course, you must have developed alternative names for everyday but Sunday...'cause Monday thru Saturday also are derived from pagan gods...
...as we know some poster accusing others of what you've mentioned above wouldn't dare be hypocritical himself on these matters...
Here's a history pagan god lesson for you, Delchiante:
Thursday evolved from the Germanic pagan god, Thor? So, tell us, Delchiante unless you studiously avoid using the term Thursday -- or Thor's day -- why do you devote such a day to such a god?
I mean, don't you worship a jealous God? Is he not provoked by the way you honor and acknowledge and recognize the false god, Thor? (Or does He look the other way and doesn't care?)
I mean, it can't possibly be that you would hypocritically apply your argument to say, a day like Christmas yet recognize Thor's day, eh?
Yes? No? You recognize Thor's day, then? If so, my, my, my: How inconsistent, how two-faced, how Pharisaical, how 'teacher-of-the-law' of you, how hypocritical of you, then, Delchiante!
As for the rest of the days & months:
* Monday came from Germanic mythology where the "moon god" = Mani.
* Tuesday comes from Norse mythology re: its one-handed god, Tiw.
* Wednesday comes from the Germanic god Wodan.
* Friday comes from the Anglo-Saxon goddess Frige.
* Saturday comes from the Roman god Saturn (Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg)
* January - Janus, Roman god of the beginning/doorway
* March - Mars, Roman god of war
* April - unknown, potentially Aphrodite, Greek goddess of love
* May - Maia, Greek goddess of fertility
* June - juno, Roman goddess of protection
So...tell us, Delchiante...how you've managed to be "biblical"...and base your current calendar on "true premises" and "pro-Christ" vs. "anti-Christ" to avoid offending or provoking our Jealous God by avoiding days and months and their names that honor and acknowledge these various pagan gods.
We're all interested in knowing what system you came up with steadfastly (and legalistically, if I might add) avoid such a thing.
And if you can't, may I suggest in the future that you put away such accusations...because you're as inconsistent, then, as all get-out!
Tradition is respected, not worshiped. Good order is a guiding principle. We do not have to follow any specific calendar, sabath, or holy days. These things may not be Biblical, but neither are they forbidden.
The tradition, especially the liturgy, mirrors many biblical principles and is built upon historical good order. While Lutherans may consider the pope an antichrist, we do not reject the history of the ancient churches.
Teachings that contradict Biblical truths are rejected. Practices that are forbidden are rejected. Links back to the ancient churches are cherished.
Every denomination that has engaged in the apostasy of women clergy has inevitably, inexorably thereafter engaged in the further apostasies of love for abortion and love for homosexuality. PCUSA being the latest example.
#1: The Lds Church HAS NO "professional" clergy. All of their bishops are "lay" people and are reimbursed for expenses...but except for some high-level "bishoprics" receive no "salary" (some have rec'd "stipends" in the past)
#2: Even 12-year old boys in the Lds Church can access its "priesthood"...so for you to place the Lds "priesthood" on the same level as "clergy" simply shows Mormon ignorance...which is an easily forgiven "flaw" as I wish most people were ignorant on all things Mormon :)
#3: Your reference to "clergy" is exactly amongst the posts of the vanity to begin, and hints that perhaps you didn't even read it.
Thank you Colofornian...
I am so glad that you are back...
as usual you give us ample info to understand just how out there and pagan and unBiblical Mormonism really is...
Mormonism is not Christianity...
It’s in the catechism. All someone has to do is read it. It’s not about what is communicated so much as whether or not people are willing to do the obvious.
The bible PLAINILY says it's PAUL that won't allow women to teach: NOT Christ!!
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Then it is impossible for someone to be poorly 'catechized'.
Everything NEEDED is in the bible.
All someone has to do is read it.
Not on Mary....the RCC says she is sinless in contradiction to the Bible.
Not on Mary....the RCC says she is sinless in contradiction to the Bible.
I don't believe Mary was sinless. What's your point again?
What kind of non-sense is this? Using a calendar is not worshiping it. Or did you mean worship according to the Gregorian calendar, as you are a sabbathtarian?
The world observes and reformers too worship the pope gregory calendar, the popes sabbath(most) and popes holy days... All unbiblical..and all will be defended and explained away by reformers..
This is typical RC logic (evenm if you are not) and is absurd, as its premise is that if we accept and use anything, such as a point of reference, then this means we recognize the validity of the whole system
Yet we use terminology and reference points from the world, and operating systems from atheists.
Meanwhile, religiously observing "days, and months, and times, and years" (Galatians 4:10-11) as in the liturgical calendar of Judaism or Catholicism is not NT worship led by the Spirit.
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