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Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity]
Colofornian | June 26, 2014 | Colofornian

Posted on 06/26/2014 11:27:30 AM PDT by Colofornian

Mass confusion is still extant pertaining to three key Christian words -- each related to "ministry" and those who serve God:
"priesthood"
"saints"
"ordination"

Each of these words have, unfortunately, been largely skewed by the historical Church: The first two by Roman Catholicism; the latter by Protestantism.

'Holy Priesthood...Royal Priesthood'

No New Testament-based Church can neglect 1 Peter 2:4-9 and Revelation 1:5-6 plus Revelation 5:10 in its definition of "priesthood."

In 1 Peter 2, the "holy priesthood" (verse 5) and the "royal priesthood" (verse 9) are described as a privilege presented to those who...
...come to Christ (verse 4);
...are chosen by God (verse 4);
...are precious to God (verse 4);
...make up God's "spiritual household" (verse 5);
...are God's "people" (verse 9);
...are a "holy nation" (verse 9);
...are God's "special possession" (verse 9);
..."declare the praises of" God (verse 9)

Here are the specific verses cited in context:

4 As YOU come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 YOU also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”[d] They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
9 But YOU are a chosen PEOPLE, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a HOLY NATION, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a PEOPLE, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The obvious questions then arise when reading these passages: Do only males...
...come to Christ?
...become objects of His chosen ones?
...become valued as "precious" by God?
...become His "special possession"?
...declare God's praises?

And exactly what kind of a "spiritual household" would such a "household" be if it excluded females?

Is Peter's reference to God's people in verse 9 gender-restricted? What kind of a "people" would that be?

What is a "holy nation" that is gender-homogenous?

Or what is a "kingdom" that constitutes males only? (see Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 5:10 for context)

Is 'Ministry' -- a word that simply means 'Service' -- best reflected within a hierarchical structure? Or, rather, as Christ Himself served, being a bond-servant of Him?

In the New American Standard Bible, which strives more toward a fairly literal translation...
...Peter referenced Himself as a "bond-servant" of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1).
So did James (James 1:1).
So did Jude (Jude 1).
So did Paul (Titus 1:1; 2 Cor. 4:5, etc.), who also included Timothy in that description (Phil. 1:1).
Paul also labeled Epaphras (Col. 1:7) and Tychicus (Col. 4:7) as such.
And the apostle John uses the phrase nine times in the book of Revelation (1:1; 2:20; 7:3; 11:18; 15:3; 19:2,5; 22:3,6).
Finally, Paul even describes Jesus Himself as a "bondservant" (Phil. 2:7)!

What is a "bond-servant?" Well, the New American Standard version also highlighted its more literal usage: A bond-servant of Jesus Christ is simply a bondslave of Jesus Christ (see Col. 4:12 re Epaphras reference; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:16)

At the time the apostle Paul wrote his letter to those in Christ at Rome, about one-third of the Roman world was slaves...bond-servants.

And it's no coincidence that Peter references "bondservant" just seven verses (1 Pet. 2:16) after his "royal priesthood" reference (v. 9): Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God."

You see, the common notion of "priesthood" has been historically skewed by layers of ecclesiastical bureaucracy. The "priesthood" isn't "one-upsmanship" in terms of service. The very words "ministry" and "service" is what is provided by the Bondslaves operating from a spiritual posture on their knees; not ecclesiastical "magistrates" administratively "lording" it over others.

This is why both the feminist rebellion verses a Biblical understanding of spiritual submission within the Church at-large
-- along with the historical notions to place both "priesthood" and "ministry" as "higher levels"
... via the decidely unbiblical notion of "ordination" --
...have both run off-base courses.
NOTE: "Clergy"-"Laity" distinctions in the ways they've come to be interpreted within Protestantism and other church traditions are extrabiblical traditions; "ordination" is merely a biblical word tied to the decrees of God but has no verse-by-verse Biblical underpinnings re: "THE ministry."

Being a bond-servant -- a bondslave -- is submission; is servanthood.

Sainthood

Likewise, the vocabulary of "Sainthood" also suffered within history and unto modern times in much the same way as "priesthood" and "the ministry"...reducing these levels to the "very few" and "spiritually elite." (NOTE: Satan has always desired to reduce his battle to a mere few)

"Saints" simply literally means "holy ones" -- those set apart to serve our Lord. In other words, ALL of us who are in Christ. We are ALL set apart for holy service, bearing the Holy Spirit within each of us.

When the apostle Paul referenced the church in greetings and other references, he highlighted ALL of them as "saints":
"but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints." (Romans 15:25)
"For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." (Romans 15:26)
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1)
"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father." (Col. 1:2)
"But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;" (Eph. 5:3)

'Ordained' or 'Ordination' for Ministry

In the New Testament, you'll find the Greek word for "ordained" twice...and both are applied to the Law of God...not to special leadership capacities. "Ordination" as a word isn't otherwise in the New Testament.

Landing Point: The Reformation and 'Priesthood of All Believers'

Allow me to quote from Wikipedia: Universal Priesthood (doctrine):

"While Martin Luther did not use the exact phrase 'priesthood of all believers", he adduces a general priesthood in Christendom in his 1520 To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation in order to dismiss the medieval view that Christians in the present life were to be divided into two classes: 'spiritual' and 'secular'. He put forward the doctrine that all baptized Christians are 'priests' and 'spiritual' in the sight of God:

"That the pope or bishop anoints, makes tonsures, ordains, consecrates, or dresses differently from the laity, may make a hypocrite or an idolatrous oil-painted icon, but it in no way makes a Christian or spiritual human being. In fact, we are all consecrated priests through Baptism, as St. Peter in 1 Peter 2[:9] says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings.'"

Two months later Luther would write in his On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520):

How then if they are forced to admit that we are all equally priests, as many of us as are baptized, and by this way we truly are; while to them is committed only the Ministry (ministerium Predigtamt) and consented to by us (nostro consensu)? If they recognize this they would know that they have no right to exercise power over us (ius imperii, in what has not been committed to them) except insofar as we may have granted it to them, for thus it says in 1 Peter 2, "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom.' In this way we are all priests, as many of us as are Christians. There are indeed priests whom we call ministers. They are chosen from among us, and who do everything in our name. That is a priesthood which is nothing else than the Ministry. Thus 1 Corinthians 4:1: 'No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God.'"

Other Notable Biblical Considerations

1 The apostle Paul listed spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. They are not gender-specific. Thus, ministry is carried on by the Holy Spirit operating thru both men and women operating as the Laos (Greek for laity) -- the "people" of God.

2 In the New Testament, we find female prophetesses in Luke 2:36 (Anna) & Acts 21:8-9 (evangelist Philip's four daughters). In some current religious cultures -- like the Mormon Church -- Philip and his four daughters might frankly be ex-communicated in a such a sub-culture! Faith investigators may want to be careful in "faulting" the Holy Spirit for giving this gift to females in those circumstances, or other spiritual gifts that the apostle Paul highlighted in numerous New Testament passages.

3 Israel was quite comfortable with Deborah serving as a Judge-leader; and an entire Old Testament book (and ensuing Purim recognition amongst Jewish believers) is devoted to Esther serving as an intercessor where no man had the inroad (or seeming courage) to proceed?


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: inman; ministry; ordination; priesthood; sainthood
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'Tis time to relook at true Biblical portrayals of "priesthood," "sainthood," and "ordination."

Are we informed worldview-wise by the Bible? Or overrun by mere "tradition?"

1 posted on 06/26/2014 11:27:30 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: daniel1212

Ping


2 posted on 06/26/2014 11:35:11 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
YHvH's need for a priestly class ended in 70 CE,
when He permitted the destruction of His Temple.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

3 posted on 06/26/2014 11:45:28 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: Colofornian

I doubt a RC would go along with the premise smuggling of “mere” tradition.


4 posted on 06/26/2014 12:16:45 PM PDT by Sparklite
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To: Colofornian

The world observes and ‘reformers’ too worship the pope gregory calendar, the pope’s sabbath(most) and pope’s holy days...
All unbiblical..and all will be defended and explained away by ‘reformers’..

If a reformation starts, it should start with reformers admitting they ‘worship’ from the false premise of the greco roman latin mother church’s teachings or practices...

If the first reformers believed the papacy was the antichrist-

How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s calendar?
How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s sabbath?
How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s
holy days?

Apparently the answer is - very comfortable...


5 posted on 06/26/2014 12:45:15 PM PDT by delchiante
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To: Colofornian
Mass confusion is still extant pertaining to three key Christian words -- each related to "ministry" and those who serve God:
"priesthood"
"saints"
"ordination"

Each of these words have, unfortunately, been largely skewed by the historical Church: The first two by Roman Catholicism; the latter by Protestantism.

 

And then by MORMONism!!!

 

 


 

Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:

AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.

AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.

APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.

CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.

ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.

EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.

GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.

GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.

HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.

JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.

JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.

MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.

MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.

POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.

PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.

PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.

PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.

SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:

The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".

SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.

SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.

SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.

STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.

TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.

TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).

VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.

WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).



6 posted on 06/26/2014 12:50:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delchiante
If a reformation starts, it should start with reformers admitting they ‘worship’ from the false premise of the greco roman latin mother church’s teachings or practices...

Or not...


Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

7 posted on 06/26/2014 12:52:34 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

I’m not sure I get the point of all this. Like ancient Israel, the Catholic Church has a priesthood for all the baptized and a select priesthood (actual ordained priests).


8 posted on 06/26/2014 1:13:54 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
I’m not sure I get the point of all this. Like ancient Israel, the Catholic Church has a priesthood for all the baptized and a select priesthood (actual ordained priests).

(As if this gets strongly -- or even weakly -- communicated to the Catholic grassroots...not that the Protestant branches do all that much better, mind you...in either communication, practice, doctrine, policy, and actual fleshing out)

9 posted on 06/26/2014 1:16:04 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: delchiante; Elsie; All
The world observes and ‘reformers’ too worship the pope gregory calendar, the pope’s sabbath(most) and pope’s holy days... All unbiblical..and all will be defended and explained away by ‘reformers’..If a reformation starts, it should start with reformers admitting they ‘worship’ from the false premise of the greco roman latin mother church’s teachings or practices...If the first reformers believed the papacy was the antichrist-How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s calendar? How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s sabbath? How comfortable would a believer be willing to worship the antichrist’s holy days? Apparently the answer is - very comfortable...

Delchiante, let's just for a moment grant your premises above...Let's say that every poster in this thread might somehow agree with your historical purview that such as stated above was based upon...let's see...how did you frame the above...oh, yeah...based upon...
...that which is...
..."unbiblical"
..."false premises"
...of "anti-Christ"

OK, then...THEN let's ask -- and actually expect -- a candid response from you on these ensuing questions:

I take it, then, Delchiante, that you're wholly 100% consistent on your approaches to days devoted to false gods, right?

So...
...we in this thread also thereby assume...
...that you tear out most January --> June months of your calendars ['cause their names are derived from false gods]... [And you refuse to likewise use any cell phone or other digital calendar that does the same]
...right?
...and, of course, you never reference those names in your everyday talk -- unless of course, you're bringing up their pagan references...
...and, of course, you must have developed alternative names for everyday but Sunday...'cause Monday thru Saturday also are derived from pagan gods...
...as we know some poster accusing others of what you've mentioned above wouldn't dare be hypocritical himself on these matters...

...Right???

Here's a history pagan god lesson for you, Delchiante:

Thursday evolved from the Germanic pagan god, Thor? So, tell us, Delchiante unless you studiously avoid using the term Thursday -- or Thor's day -- why do you devote such a day to such a god?

I mean, don't you worship a jealous God? Is he not provoked by the way you honor and acknowledge and recognize the false god, Thor? (Or does He look the other way and doesn't care?)

I mean, it can't possibly be that you would hypocritically apply your argument to say, a day like Christmas yet recognize Thor's day, eh?

Yes? No? You recognize Thor's day, then? If so, my, my, my: How inconsistent, how two-faced, how Pharisaical, how 'teacher-of-the-law' of you, how hypocritical of you, then, Delchiante!

As for the rest of the days & months:
* Monday came from Germanic mythology where the "moon god" = Mani.
* Tuesday comes from Norse mythology re: its one-handed god, Tiw.
* Wednesday comes from the Germanic god Wodan.
* Friday comes from the Anglo-Saxon goddess Frige.
* Saturday comes from the Roman god Saturn (Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg)
* January - Janus, Roman god of the beginning/doorway
* March - Mars, Roman god of war
* April - unknown, potentially Aphrodite, Greek goddess of love
* May - Maia, Greek goddess of fertility
* June - juno, Roman goddess of protection

So...tell us, Delchiante...how you've managed to be "biblical"...and base your current calendar on "true premises" and "pro-Christ" vs. "anti-Christ" to avoid offending or provoking our Jealous God by avoiding days and months and their names that honor and acknowledge these various pagan gods.

We're all interested in knowing what system you came up with steadfastly (and legalistically, if I might add) avoid such a thing.

And if you can't, may I suggest in the future that you put away such accusations...because you're as inconsistent, then, as all get-out!

10 posted on 06/26/2014 1:28:23 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: delchiante
If a reformation starts, it should start with reformers admitting they ‘worship’ from the false premise of the greco roman latin mother church’s teachings or practices...

Tradition is respected, not worshiped. Good order is a guiding principle. We do not have to follow any specific calendar, sabath, or holy days. These things may not be Biblical, but neither are they forbidden.

The tradition, especially the liturgy, mirrors many biblical principles and is built upon historical good order. While Lutherans may consider the pope an antichrist, we do not reject the history of the ancient churches.

Teachings that contradict Biblical truths are rejected. Practices that are forbidden are rejected. Links back to the ancient churches are cherished.

11 posted on 06/26/2014 1:45:55 PM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Colofornian

Every denomination that has engaged in the apostasy of women clergy has inevitably, inexorably thereafter engaged in the further apostasies of love for abortion and love for homosexuality. PCUSA being the latest example.


12 posted on 06/26/2014 1:47:28 PM PDT by afsnco
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To: afsnco; All
Every denomination that has engaged in the apostasy of women clergy has inevitably, inexorably thereafter engaged in the further apostasies of love for abortion and love for homosexuality. PCUSA being the latest example.

#1: The Lds Church HAS NO "professional" clergy. All of their bishops are "lay" people and are reimbursed for expenses...but except for some high-level "bishoprics" receive no "salary" (some have rec'd "stipends" in the past)

#2: Even 12-year old boys in the Lds Church can access its "priesthood"...so for you to place the Lds "priesthood" on the same level as "clergy" simply shows Mormon ignorance...which is an easily forgiven "flaw" as I wish most people were ignorant on all things Mormon :)

#3: Your reference to "clergy" is exactly amongst the posts of the vanity to begin, and hints that perhaps you didn't even read it.

13 posted on 06/26/2014 1:59:20 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Thank you Colofornian...

I am so glad that you are back...

as usual you give us ample info to understand just how out there and pagan and unBiblical Mormonism really is...

Mormonism is not Christianity...


14 posted on 06/26/2014 2:19:38 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

It’s in the catechism. All someone has to do is read it. It’s not about what is communicated so much as whether or not people are willing to do the obvious.


15 posted on 06/26/2014 2:29:12 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: afsnco
Every denomination that has engaged in the apostasy of women clergy has inevitably, inexorably thereafter engaged in the further apostasies of love for abortion and love for homosexuality.

The bible PLAINILY says it's PAUL that won't allow women to teach: NOT Christ!!

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

16 posted on 06/26/2014 3:27:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: vladimir998
It’s in the catechism. All someone has to do is read it.

Then it is impossible for someone to be poorly 'catechized'.

Everything NEEDED is in the bible.

All someone has to do is read it.

17 posted on 06/26/2014 3:28:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tao Yin
Teachings that contradict Biblical truths are rejected. Practices that are forbidden are rejected. Links back to the ancient churches are cherished.

Not on Mary....the RCC says she is sinless in contradiction to the Bible.

18 posted on 06/26/2014 3:53:38 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: ealgeone
Teachings that contradict Biblical truths are rejected. Practices that are forbidden are rejected. Links back to the ancient churches are cherished.

Not on Mary....the RCC says she is sinless in contradiction to the Bible.

I don't believe Mary was sinless. What's your point again?

19 posted on 06/26/2014 4:03:17 PM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: delchiante
The world observes and ‘reformers’ too worship the pope gregory calendar

What kind of non-sense is this? Using a calendar is not worshiping it. Or did you mean worship according to the Gregorian calendar, as you are a sabbathtarian?

The world observes and ‘reformers’ too worship the pope gregory calendar, the pope’s sabbath(most) and pope’s holy days... All unbiblical..and all will be defended and explained away by ‘reformers’..

This is typical RC logic (evenm if you are not) and is absurd, as its premise is that if we accept and use anything, such as a point of reference, then this means we recognize the validity of the whole system

Yet we use terminology and reference points from the world, and operating systems from atheists.

Meanwhile, religiously observing "days, and months, and times, and years" (Galatians 4:10-11) as in the liturgical calendar of Judaism or Catholicism is not NT worship led by the Spirit.

20 posted on 06/26/2014 4:39:22 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Colofornian
For the record:

Does presbyter or elder mean priest?

In her effort to conform NT pastors to her erroneous understanding of the Lord's Supper (“Eucharist”), Catholicism came to render presbuteros” as “priests” (which the RC Douay Rheims Bible inconsistently does: Acts 20:17; Titus 1:5), and sometimes “episkopos,” in order to support a distinctive NT sacerdotal priesthood in the church, but which the Holy Spirit never does. For the word which the Holy Spirit distinctively uses for priests*, is “hiereus” or “archiereus.” (Heb. 4:15; 10:11) and which is never used for NT pastors, nor does the words presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer) which He does use for NT pastors mean "priest." Presbuteros or episkopos do not denote a unique sacrificial function, and hiereus (as archiereus=chief priests) is used in distinction to elders in such places as Lk. 22:66; Acts 22:5.

This use of priest is defended by the use of an etymological fallacy, since "priest" etymologically is derived from presbyteros due to imposed functional equivalance.

Etymology is the study of the history of words, their origins, and evolving changes in form and meaning. over time, however, etymologies are not definitions. The etymological fallacy here is a linguistic misconception, a genetic fallacy that erroneously holds that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning.

The only way NT pastors are called "priests" is by way of inclusion in the general priesthood (hierateuma) of all believers as they all function as priests, offering both gifts and sacrifices response to being forgiven of sins, in thanksgiving and service to God and for others. (1Pt. 2:5,9; Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9)

Jewish elders as a body existed before the priesthood, most likely as heads of household or clans, and being an elder did not necessarily make one a Levitical priest (Ex. 3:16,18, 18:12; 19:7; 24:1; Num. 11:6; Dt. 21:2; 22:5-7; 31:9,28; 32:7; Josh. 23:2; 2Chron. 5:4; Lam. 1:9; cf. Mt. 21:13; 26:47) or a high priest, offering both gifts and sacrifices for sins. (Heb. 5:1) A priest could be an elder, and could elders exercise some priestly functions such as praying and laying hands on sacrifices, but unlike presbuteros and episkopos, the two were not the same in language or in function, as one could be a elder without formally being a priest. It is also understood that even the Latin word (sacerdos) which corresponds to priest has no morphological or lingual relationship with the Latin word for “presbyter.”

Despite the Scriptural distinctions in titles, Rome made the word “presbyteros” (elders) to mean “priest” by way of functional equivalence, reading into Scripture her own theology, supposing that the presbyters engaged in a unique and primary sacrificial function of turning bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ as an expiation for sins, and which is then physically consumed to gain spirtual life. However, the elements used in the commemoration of the Lord death (“the Lord's supper,” and called the “Eucharist” by Catholics) symbolically represent Christ death (see here), just as David figuratively called drinking water the "blood" of men and poured it out on the ground, as it represented the lives of those who risked their own blood. (2Sam. 23:15-17) Morever, the sacrifice related to the Lord's supper is that which all communicants are to show by the communal meal is to show, by the unselfish caring for each other in the body which Christ bought with His own sinless shed blood. (Acts 20:28)

For despite Rome's centralization of this act as a cardinal doctrine in the life of the church, the only teaching in Acts and onward (and thus interprets the gospels) that clearly refers to the Lord's suppper is that of 1 Cor. 11:19-34, and in which the nature of the elements is not the focus, nor was the sin a failure to recognize them as the transubstantiated body and blood of Christ, but the focus was that of the coporate body of Christ, which unity with Christ some did not recognize (as shown here).

Thus formally identifying a distinctive class of Christian clergy as “priests” rather than “presbyters” (elders) is not only grammatically incorrect by it is functionally unwarranted and unscriptural.

In response to a query on this issue, the web site of International Standard Version (not my preferred translation) states,

No Greek lexicons or other scholarly sources suggest that "presbyteros" means "priest" instead of "elder". The Greek word is equivalent to the Hebrew ZAQEN, which means "elder", and not priest. You can see the ZAQENIM described in Exodus 18:21-22 using some of the same equivalent Hebrew terms as Paul uses in the GK of 1&2 Timothy and Titus. Note that the ZAQENIM are NOT priests (i.e., from the tribe of Levi) but are rather men of distinctive maturity that qualifies them for ministerial roles among the people.

Therefore the NT equivalent of the ZAQENIM cannot be the Levitical priests. The Greek "presbyteros" (literally, the comparative of the Greek word for "old" and therefore translated as "one who is older") thus describes the character qualities of the "episkopos". The term "elder" would therefore appear to describe the character, while the term "overseer" (for that is the literal rendering of "episkopos") connotes the job description.

To sum up, far from obfuscating the meaning of "presbyteros", our rendering of "elder" most closely associates the original Greek term with its OT counterpart, the ZAQENIM. ...we would also question the fundamental assumption that you bring up in your last observation, i.e., that "the church has always had priests among its ordained clergy". We can find no documentation of that claim. ( http://isvbible.com/catacombs/elders.htm)

Moreover, in addition to a separate class (and clothing) of sacerdotal clergy mentioned above, much less required (with rare exceptions) celibacy for them, what you will not see in the New Testament church is,

Praying to the departed, and the hyper exaltation of and devotion to Mary above that which is written; (1Cor. 4:6)

Or that regeneration cannot precede baptism (as some hold), or baptism except to those who could fulfill the stated requirements of hearing, repentance and faith; (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37; cf. 8:12; 16:32-34; 19:4,5)

Or the Lord's supper being the means by which souls gain life in them, or that not “discerning the body” referred to the elements of the supper versus the church;

Or bowing down to icons, or believers bowing down to any other believer, (cf. Acts 10:26)

Or an exalted supreme magistrate in Rome (versus warnings against such exaltation: Mt. 23:8; Jude 1:11; 3Jn. 3:9-11; Rv. 2:15) and to whom all the churches were directed to look to,

Nor an assured perpetual formulaic magisterial infallibility as per Rome;

Or the mention of any successors to the original apostles (such James: Acts 12:2) besides Judas, he being elected to preserve the foundational twelve apostles, (Acts 1:16-26; cf. Rev. 21:14) and that by lots, preventing political maneuverings and things that resulted in extended papal absences (a headless Roman church), and men being chosen who were not even qualified to be church members, let alone successors to Peter.

Or a separate class of believers called “saints,” or the mention of the postmortem location of the saints being in purgatory versus with the Lord. (Lk. 24:43; 2Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17)

Or any pastored Christian bodies being called anything less than a church if they believed and preached the gospel by which men are regenerated, and who are thus baptized by the spirit into the church, (1Cor. 12:13), even when under a separatist pastor, (3Jn. 3:9-11) versus “ecclesia communities” (as Rome refers to evangelical churches as) because they do not subscribe to the unScriptural perpetuated Petrine papacy of Rome and all that which flows from it.

Or conversion being the result of intellectual indoctrination and the supremacy of the church in Rome, fostering faith in the church and one's merits for salvation, versus the aforementioned conviction by the Holy Spirit such as true preaching can effect, usually resulting in conversions in the same hour (though preparation can take a lifetime), and thus souls can be saved and spiritually added to the church anywhere, even being left alone in the desert, (Acts 8:26-39; cf. 1Cor. 12:13);

21 posted on 06/26/2014 4:46:14 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
For the record: Does presbyter or elder mean priest? In her effort to conform NT pastors to her erroneous understanding of the Lord's Supper (“Eucharist”), Catholicism came to render presbuteros” as “priests” (which the RC Douay Rheims Bible inconsistently does: Acts 20:17; Titus 1:5), and sometimes “episkopos,” in order to support a distinctive NT sacerdotal priesthood in the church, but which the Holy Spirit never does. For the word which the Holy Spirit distinctively uses for priests*, is “hiereus” or “archiereus.” (Heb. 4:15; 10:11) and which is never used for NT pastors, nor does the words presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer) which He does use for NT pastors mean "priest." Presbuteros or episkopos do not denote a unique sacrificial function, and hiereus (as archiereus=chief priests) is used in distinction to elders in such places as Lk. 22:66; Acts 22:5. This use of priest is defended by the use of an etymological fallacy, since "priest" etymologically is derived from presbyteros due to imposed functional equivalance. Etymology is the study of the history of words, their origins, and evolving changes in form and meaning. over time, however, etymologies are not definitions. The etymological fallacy here is a linguistic misconception, a genetic fallacy that erroneously holds that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. The only way NT pastors are called "priests" is by way of inclusion in the general priesthood (hierateuma) of all believers as they all function as priests, offering both gifts and sacrifices response to being forgiven of sins, in thanksgiving and service to God and for others. (1Pt. 2:5,9; Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) Jewish elders as a body existed before the priesthood, most likely as heads of household or clans, and being an elder did not necessarily make one a Levitical priest (Ex. 3:16,18, 18:12; 19:7; 24:1; Num. 11:6; Dt. 21:2; 22:5-7; 31:9,28; 32:7; Josh. 23:2; 2Chron. 5:4; Lam. 1:9; cf. Mt. 21:13; 26:47) or a high priest, offering both gifts and sacrifices for sins. (Heb. 5:1) A priest could be an elder, and could elders exercise some priestly functions such as praying and laying hands on sacrifices, but unlike presbuteros and episkopos, the two were not the same in language or in function, as one could be a elder without formally being a priest. It is also understood that even the Latin word (sacerdos) which corresponds to priest has no morphological or lingual relationship with the Latin word for “presbyter.” Despite the Scriptural distinctions in titles, Rome made the word “presbyteros” (elders) to mean “priest” by way of functional equivalence, reading into Scripture her own theology, supposing that the presbyters engaged in a unique and primary sacrificial function of turning bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ as an expiation for sins, and which is then physically consumed to gain spirtual life. However, the elements used in the commemoration of the Lord death (“the Lord's supper,” and called the “Eucharist” by Catholics) symbolically represent Christ death (see here), just as David figuratively called drinking water the "blood" of men and poured it out on the ground, as it represented the lives of those who risked their own blood. (2Sam. 23:15-17) Morever, the sacrifice related to the Lord's supper is that which all communicants are to show by the communal meal is to show, by the unselfish caring for each other in the body which Christ bought with His own sinless shed blood. (Acts 20:28) For despite Rome's centralization of this act as a cardinal doctrine in the life of the church, the only teaching in Acts and onward (and thus interprets the gospels) that clearly refers to the Lord's suppper is that of 1 Cor. 11:19-34, and in which the nature of the elements is not the focus, nor was the sin a failure to recognize them as the transubstantiated body and blood of Christ, but the focus was that of the coporate body of Christ, which unity with Christ some did not recognize (as shown here). Thus formally identifying a distinctive class of Christian clergy as “priests” rather than “presbyters” (elders) is not only grammatically incorrect by it is functionally unwarranted and unscriptural. In response to a query on this issue, the web site of International Standard Version (not my preferred translation) states, No Greek lexicons or other scholarly sources suggest that "presbyteros" means "priest" instead of "elder". The Greek word is equivalent to the Hebrew ZAQEN, which means "elder", and not priest. You can see the ZAQENIM described in Exodus 18:21-22 using some of the same equivalent Hebrew terms as Paul uses in the GK of 1&2 Timothy and Titus. Note that the ZAQENIM are NOT priests (i.e., from the tribe of Levi) but are rather men of distinctive maturity that qualifies them for ministerial roles among the people. Therefore the NT equivalent of the ZAQENIM cannot be the Levitical priests. The Greek "presbyteros" (literally, the comparative of the Greek word for "old" and therefore translated as "one who is older") thus describes the character qualities of the "episkopos". The term "elder" would therefore appear to describe the character, while the term "overseer" (for that is the literal rendering of "episkopos") connotes the job description. To sum up, far from obfuscating the meaning of "presbyteros", our rendering of "elder" most closely associates the original Greek term with its OT counterpart, the ZAQENIM. ...we would also question the fundamental assumption that you bring up in your last observation, i.e., that "the church has always had priests among its ordained clergy". We can find no documentation of that claim. ( http://isvbible.com/catacombs/elders.htm) Moreover, in addition to a separate class (and clothing) of sacerdotal clergy mentioned above, much less required (with rare exceptions) celibacy for them, what you will not see in the New Testament church is, Praying to the departed, and the hyper exaltation of and devotion to Mary above that which is written; (1Cor. 4:6) Or that regeneration cannot precede baptism (as some hold), or baptism except to those who could fulfill the stated requirements of hearing, repentance and faith; (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37; cf. 8:12; 16:32-34; 19:4,5) Or the Lord's supper being the means by which souls gain life in them, or that not “discerning the body” referred to the elements of the supper versus the church; Or bowing down to icons, or believers bowing down to any other believer, (cf. Acts 10:26) Or an exalted supreme magistrate in Rome (versus warnings against such exaltation: Mt. 23:8; Jude 1:11; 3Jn. 3:9-11; Rv. 2:15) and to whom all the churches were directed to look to, Nor an assured perpetual formulaic magisterial infallibility as per Rome; Or the mention of any successors to the original apostles (such James: Acts 12:2) besides Judas, he being elected to preserve the foundational twelve apostles, (Acts 1:16-26; cf. Rev. 21:14) and that by lots, preventing political maneuverings and things that resulted in extended papal absences (a headless Roman church), and men being chosen who were not even qualified to be church members, let alone successors to Peter. Or a separate class of believers called “saints,” or the mention of the postmortem location of the saints being in purgatory versus with the Lord. (Lk. 24:43; 2Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17) Or any pastored Christian bodies being called anything less than a church if they believed and preached the gospel by which men are regenerated, and who are thus baptized by the spirit into the church, (1Cor. 12:13), even when under a separatist pastor, (3Jn. 3:9-11) versus “ecclesia communities” (as Rome refers to evangelical churches as) because they do not subscribe to the unScriptural perpetuated Petrine papacy of Rome and all that which flows from it. Or conversion being the result of intellectual indoctrination and the supremacy of the church in Rome, fostering faith in the church and one's merits for salvation, versus the aforementioned conviction by the Holy Spirit such as true preaching can effect, usually resulting in conversions in the same hour (though preparation can take a lifetime), and thus souls can be saved and spiritually added to the church anywhere, even being left alone in the desert, (Acts 8:26-39; cf. 1Cor. 12:13);

good work my friend!

22 posted on 06/26/2014 5:10:39 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: Elsie

“Then it is impossible for someone to be poorly ‘catechized’.”

You’re proof to the contrary.


23 posted on 06/26/2014 7:28:45 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: ealgeone

To be the glory.

See PM about use of html.


24 posted on 06/26/2014 7:44:04 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Colofornian

What most people outside of Mormonsim do not get is that this isn’t like other churches with formal, trained clergy. Their ‘priesthood’ is open to boys starting at age 12. Their Bishops (read pastors) have no training and women are excluded from even the most basic things like helping with communion, standing in the circle for baby blessings, giving their children healing blessings - things women in Christianity are all allowed to do.

Another thing is these untrained ‘bishops’ ask very personal and often sexual questions, without parents there, to young teenage girls (and boys) to determine ‘worthiness’. Many of these interview questions can be VERY GRAPHIC depending upon the ‘bishop’ and I personally know several women I have helped through my ministry who have been scarred by this. What would be wrong with a woman interviewing these young girls rather than a 40 something year old man? But NOOOOOO, can’t have that, only the men have this ‘priesthood’ (which isn’t biblical anyway).


25 posted on 06/27/2014 12:47:06 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see.)
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To: vladimir998

Thank You!

It took years of study!


26 posted on 06/27/2014 4:25:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
What would be wrong with a woman interviewing these young girls rather than a 40 something year old man? But NOOOOOO, can’t have that, only the men have this ‘priesthood’ (which isn’t biblical anyway).



What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?
 




prophet kimball"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982


spencer kimball"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65


spencer kimball"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
-
Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196


"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.


kimball"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965


"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155


"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.

27 posted on 06/27/2014 4:26:58 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
What is your church doing to help the FEMALE to stay true?


HMMMmmm...


28 posted on 06/27/2014 4:27:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Oh you have no idea. One of my friends was 18 when she got married and when she went for her temple recommend interview he went into detail about oral sex, bestiality (?!), sodomy and what was proper and not proper in Mormon marriages. She didn’t even know what those things were (typical sheltered Utah Mormon girl) and so he explained it to her.

And that isn’t even the worst account I have come across.


29 posted on 06/27/2014 5:17:43 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see.)
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To: Elsie

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Who is ‘her’ to you?


30 posted on 06/28/2014 7:33:50 AM PDT by delchiante
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To: Colofornian

Ezekiel 46:1 is our heavenly Father’s template and Torah and the prophets confirm it... and our Messiah’s life events detailed in the New Testament (birth, circumcision, dedication, baptism, death, burial, resurrection) all occurred on a new moon, sabbath or feast, following the same template-

and those cannot be found using the world’s calendar.. and that isn’t an accident...

New moon day-
Six work days
Seventh day Sabbath...(8th day of His month but seventh day of His week.
That is what I observe.. days are numbered, not named...

Today is the 30th day and last day of His second month.it is Gregorian Saturn’s day....
The new moon day is tomorrow and will be the first day of His third month.(and christians will actually stumble into His Sabbath for four weeks coming up-muslims and jews stumble into it sometimes too-it was a Friya’s day for four weeks in His second month)

His seventh day sabbath was yesterday, a goddess Friya s day in the pope’s calendar-I am guessing most were working that day...I wasn’t...

I observe His calendar, not the pope’s and it is all for His Glory! (And BTW, the next man made holy day of July 4th will be a work day for me)

And because I have been blessed by Him to see it and then take action and observe His timekeeping, I now know how counterfeit the world is..

And can see how scripture can proclaim that the devil deceives the whole world- and then see it occur...
And how even the very elect can be deceived (even to the point that reformers will defend the teachings and practices of what the first reformers called the ‘Antichrist’)

The first reformers had an opinion of the papacy... and I concur with that belief..

The world accepts the premises presented by the greco roman latin mother church - and her daughters... I do not...

And that is why there are so many denominations out there, each with its own version of ‘truth’..all birthed from counterfeit premises and each holding what they agree with their mother on- and jumping off the rest..

But you and they are free to do so.. I have been set free from conforming to this world...HalleluYah!
And if we agree on one thing, let it be that His Grace and Mercy is needed more than any of us know..I know how how enslaved I was to this world, even as a believer..

Two years ago I would not have even thought about the gregorian being anything other than the calendar that I used too..

Scripture as my guide and His Spirit as my teacher, I was able to see this timekeeping He gave us at creation and He taught Israel(they have abandoned)
and to see that timekeeping reflected in the major events in our Messiah’s life- hinted and confirmed in scripture that we read without even knowing it?

The pope’s calendar doesn’t do that...nor was it designed to.. But our Heavenly Father’s timekeeping does point to our Messiah..and His Spirit can lead anyone to that truth if one is willing to ask, seek and knock...

May He bless your journey out of this counterfeit world more than He has mine.


31 posted on 06/28/2014 8:28:17 AM PDT by delchiante
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To: Tao Yin

The Messiah of Israel, the Word the became flesh:

Was born on a new moon, sabbath or feast (His timekeeping and scripture tells us which)

Was circumcised on a new moon, Sabbath or feast (His timekeeping tells us and scripture hints which)

Was dedicated in the temple on a new moon, sabbath or feast(His timekeeping tells us and scripture hints which)

Was baptized on a new moon, sabbath or feast (His timekeeping tells us and scripture hints which)

Was killed on a new moon, sabbath or feast(His timekeeping tells us and scripture details and confirms which.

Was resting, even in death, in the tomb on a new moon, sabbath (this one) or a feast (this too)- His timekeeping tells us and scripture details and confirms which.

Was raised from the dead on a new moon, sabbath or feast - His timekeeping tells us and scripture confirms which..

New moons, sabbath and feasts- found on our Heavenly Father’s calendar...
The messiah fulfills them all....

And instead, Christendom selects december 25 and easter and ignores His new moons, Sabbaths and feasts..
Mostly because of ‘tradition’.

Does that look like a bride getting ready for her bridegroom or does that look like counterfeit worship that they inherited from their greco roman latin mother?

It looks like more Tammuz than Torah..


32 posted on 06/28/2014 8:42:06 AM PDT by delchiante
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To: daniel1212

The pope’s calendar tells you what a work day is... and what a sabbath day is(for all major religions BTW).. and all the world-business, governments and religions accept the pope’s calendar as their standard and are united behind it...
Scripture too tells us what a work day is, what a holy day is, what a sabbath is, but that is ignored for the world’s system..

Scripture gives us His calendar and timekeeping and it isn’t based solely on the sun like the pope’s calendar- that isn’t new-scripture and history speaks on ancient sun worshippers...

Your entire life (and the world BTW), runs on a counterfeit of our Heavenly Father’s calendar. Mine was too before I was blessed by His Spirit with this knowledge.

His calendar is in His sky and His template is throughout His word and fulfilled by our Messiah which each major event of His life on earth...

The Messiah was born, circumcised, dedicated, baptized, killed, rested in tomb, and raised on either a new moon, sabbath or feast..
Those are all days that are found in our Heavenly Father’s calendar and without His calendar, one may accept counterfeits instead of the Genuine..

None of those can be found using the pope’s calendar. They can only be counterfeited..
And the master counterfeiter is our enemy..

So, I observe the calendar that has a template in Ezekial, and confirmed in both the old and new testament and perfectly fulfilled by That Word that became flesh and dwelt among us..

We are called not to conform to the world and His Word and His Creation gives us a perfect calendar that actually points to the Way, Truth and Life and His Kingdom..

But december 25, easter and sun’s day worship, certainly are the standard for the greco roman latin mother church and her daughters..
And all the reformers start with that same foundation..

I am not comfortable with that foundation...

I actually concur with the first reformers about the papacy being an part of the ‘instead of’ or ‘in place of’ Messiah..

Reformers today can accept that premise or not- but if they do accept that the papacy is that dangerous, then maybe anything the papacy teaches is something a reformer should be careful to accept as ‘givens’..

And it may be uncomfortable..even a punch in the gut...

We are to be preparing for our bridegroom... what if all we ever knew or cared to know about our Bridegroom, taught by our mother and daughter churches, is just a greco roman latin counterfeit?

Could Satan be that subtle? That devious?

The father of all lies living in the greco roman latin mother church? most early reformers say yes..
Birthing daughters who are taught and the spread lies, even subtly? Most reformers would say no, not all of them..

I am not so sure...

And without Him showing me His calendar and His timekeeping, (and how it fit our Messiah’s life) I would still be a slave to this world and the world’s system...

But Truth has set me free from living my life based on counterfeits given to us by the master counterfeiter..

But all are free to live as they choose...

But it is important that there is a calendar that the world doesn’t observe but was created at Creation..and the special appointed times and set days on that calendar point to the Messiah- it was given to Israel for rehearsals and shadows for their coming King and Kingdom..they too have ignored it and accept the world’s calculations..
And who knows, maybe it will be used for His return..

I just want to be one of the wise virgins and be prepared for the Bridegroom..
His timekeeping keeps me awake...

But to each his own..the world and the church is united so you can get a job on a moonsday-friyas day business week basis, and still find the churches sabbaths. And get some other man made holy days off like July 4th..

Can’t do that with His calendar. July 4th is a work day this year on His timekeeping.


33 posted on 06/28/2014 10:00:22 AM PDT by delchiante
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To: delchiante
Who is ‘her’ to you?

The text answered your question...


Revelation 18 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

34 posted on 06/28/2014 3:35:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian; RightField; aposiopetic; rbmillerjr; Lowell1775; JPX2011; NKP_Vet; Jed Eckert; ...

In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity],

Colofornian wrote:

‘Tis time to relook at true Biblical portrayals of “priesthood,” “sainthood,” and “ordination.”
Are we informed worldview-wise by the Bible? Or overrun by mere “tradition?”


35 posted on 06/28/2014 3:36:55 PM PDT by narses (Matthew 7:6. He appears to have made up his mind let him live with the consequences.)
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To: delchiante
Some people just cannot accept Scripture:

Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

36 posted on 06/28/2014 3:37:39 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delchiante
The pope’s calendar tells you what a work day is...

Some people just cannot accept Scripture:

Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

37 posted on 06/28/2014 3:38:40 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Revelation 17:1-5  (KJV)

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.


38 posted on 06/28/2014 3:41:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: narses
Or overrun by mere “tradition?”

Out of the abundance of the heart...

39 posted on 06/28/2014 3:42:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delchiante; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer
Your entire life (and the world BTW), runs on a counterfeit of our Heavenly Father’s calendar. Mine was too before I was blessed by His Spirit with this knowledge.

That is quite a presumption, but as said, observing a reference point of a system, whether it is a landmark or a calendar, does not mean one accepts all that that system teaches.

And i do not celebrate the annual feast of Christ-mass, as i do not need to submit to a liturgical calendar created by a system of religious syncretism. And which holy-day i see as being like "high places," which were turned into places of Jehovistic worship, rather than destroying them. And which kept them alive and thus facilitated their return back to their former state.

And i wish the names of the days of the week were not from paganism, which i am sure they will not be called in the Lord's reign on earth.

But i also do not believe the focus and necessity is on whether the calendar is correct, as under the New Covenant the command to observe the 7th day sabbath is not enjoined, nor the Jewish liturgical calendar as a whole.

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. (Galatians 4:9-11)

But as the church met on the 1st day, then i consider that my sabbath day, from Sat. pm to Sun pm, and wish the stores were closed etc.

Yet the motive one has in this is what is most important.

40 posted on 06/28/2014 4:03:23 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ealgeone

41 posted on 06/28/2014 4:20:15 PM PDT by narses (Matthew 7:6. He appears to have made up his mind let him live with the consequences.)
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To: Elsie
The bible PLAINILY says it's PAUL that won't allow women to teach: NOT Christ!!

Pssst Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

It's in the Bible so it must be correct.

42 posted on 06/28/2014 4:37:53 PM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertarian)
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To: Elsie

LOL!

Christ had men as apostles. Isn’t that enough truth for you? Why don’t you believe Christ and follow him?


43 posted on 06/28/2014 4:39:52 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: delchiante; Colofornian
The new moon day is tomorrow and will be the first day of His third month

How do you write that on checks?

44 posted on 06/28/2014 4:42:44 PM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertarian)
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To: Tao Yin
Teachings that contradict Biblical truths are rejected. Practices that are forbidden are rejected. Links back to the ancient churches are cherished. Not on Mary....the RCC says she is sinless in contradiction to the Bible. I don't believe Mary was sinless. What's your point again?

I don't believe she was sinless either. However, the RCC teaches that she was.

The Bible, if one reads it, will substantiate that she was a sinner and in need of salvation like the rest of us.

45 posted on 06/28/2014 6:15:49 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: narses
You KNOW you are supposed to LEAD with the cereal!

This is what happens when you try to post your own thoughts in a thread first...

46 posted on 06/28/2014 6:46:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
Pssst Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

TRoo bad he must have QUIT listening; because YOUR leaders felt an urge to add MORE doctrine than needed.

47 posted on 06/28/2014 6:47:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
Why don’t you believe Christ and follow him?

Because I'm not yet finished beating my wife; silly!


John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


48 posted on 06/28/2014 6:49:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ealgeone
However, the RCC teaches that she was.

It teachs that she was asexual as well.

49 posted on 06/28/2014 6:50:53 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
However, the RCC teaches that she was. It teachs that she was asexual as well.

Gotta admit...that's a first.

50 posted on 06/28/2014 6:57:24 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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