Evangelicals Hail Pope's Caserta Visit and Apologise to Catholics

Vatican Radio ^ | 7/30/14

[marshmallow]

The head of the World Evangelical Alliance has hailed Pope Francis’ meeting with Pentecostals in Caserta and apologised for discrimination of Catholics by Evangelicals in the past. After an encounter with the Catholic community in the southern Italian city on Saturday, the Pope returned to Caserta on Monday where he was welcomed by over 200 members of the Pentecostal Church of Reconciliation.

Commenting on the impact of that historic meeting, the Secretary General of the World Evangelical Alliance, Rev. Dr. Geoff Tunnicliffe said while the official conversations between Catholics and Evangelicals are an essential part of the ecumenical journey, the building up of trust and friendship leads to a deepening of those theological dialogues. He also talked about the importance of a meeting that he and other Christian leaders had in June with Pope Francis in the Vatican and about the legacy of Evangelical leader Tony Palmer who died ten days ago…..

[Alex Murphy]

Commenting on the impact of that historic meeting, the Secretary General of the World Evangelical Alliance, Rev. Dr. Geoff Tunnicliffe said while the official conversations between Catholics and Evangelicals are an essential part of the ecumenical journey, the building up of trust and friendship leads to a deepening of those theological dialogues. He also talked about the importance of a meeting that he and other Christian leaders had in June with Pope Francis in the Vatican and about the legacy of Evangelical leader Tony Palmer who died ten days ago…..

Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations ("with more popping up every day"), holding to 52,000 different interpretations of the Bible because we can't get along with each other, and yet we Protestants somehow managed to get together under one leader and hailed their pope.

Meanwhile, these same Catholics can't seem to get together to hail this pope themselves.

I'll be in the corner. Laughing.

[vladimir998]

“Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations...”

Protestants have said much the same thing - about Protestant sects. And the number is clearly much larger than 52,000.

“I’ll be in the corner. Laughing.”

And we’ll be laughing too. Mostly at you.

[Campion]

yet we Protestants somehow managed to get together under one leader and hailed their pope

In what sense are you "under" Geoff Tunnicliffe, and exactly how do you join him in "hailing" the pope? Be specific.

these same Catholics can't seem to get together to hail this pope themselves

What does that mean? "Catholics" who don't recognize Francis as Pope are outside the church. Those who are aren't under some magical obligation to think everything he does or says is equally good. Popes sometimes make bad decisions or say dumb things. Admitting that isn't disunity, just sanity.

[Dr. Thorne]

This laughable alliance does not represent me or millions of other Evangelicals. We all believe one thing: Jesus Christ is Lord. If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.

[WestwardHo]

“Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations...”

Protestants have said much the same thing - about Protestant sects. And the number is clearly much larger than 52,000.

“I’ll be in the corner. Laughing.”

And we’ll be laughing too. Mostly at you.

We step into eternity, and God’s presence one by one.
If we hear,” Depart...I never knew you...” No one will be laughing.
A believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit to give him the wisdom to understand God’s Word. Doesn’t matter if the whole world is against him.
“It isn’t what I don’t understand in the Bible that troubles me, it’s those portions that I do understand.”
Such as, “The wages of sin is death.”

[tbpiper]

The head of the World Evangelical Alliance has ....apologised for discrimination of Catholics by Evangelicals in the past.

So is the pope going to 'unpronounce' the anathemas against us?

[Petrosius]

If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.

Since Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY there is nothing to stop and you are free to call us Christians.

[Petrosius]

So is the pope going to 'unpronounce' the anathemas against us?

To end discrimination in society is not the same as saying that one's error puts one outside the Church.

Will you and your fellow Protestants stop calling Catholics heretics and, for some, not even recognizing us as Christians?

[CdMGuy]

How about Pope Francis speaking out loudly and clearly against the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Africa and elsewhere. How about him loudly and clearly calling on all Muslim leaders, both religious and political, to do the same thing. When the Pope starts doing that day after day, I will begin to have some respect for him.

[PieterCasparzen]

If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.

Since Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY there is nothing to stop and you are free to call us Christians.

I have seen statues of Mary in Churches, on people's front lawns, etc. So statues of Mary are kept.

They pray to Mary to intercede for them with "her son".

This violates the first and second commandments.

Roman Catholic congregants are mislead by false teachers and false doctrine. That's why many leave the Roman Catholic church. Because of the loss of good members, the Roman Catholic church and some zealous Roman Catholics rather aggressively denigrate Protestant denominations that point out various unscriptural aspects to RC doctrine, while they do not so much do this towards Protestant denominations that have their own gross false teachings but refrain from pointing out Roman Catholic false doctrine. Mostly, if you notice, on FR, rather "assertive" RC posters will focus entirely on Reformed Protestants, referring to them collectively as "Calvinists". That's the only group that I've personally seen "assertive" RC posters target. On the other hand, the "assertive" Calvinists, while they certainly jump in and take part in the "fray", they will also frequently assert false teachings by various other denominational categories, i.e., Mormons, various Evangelicals, Charismatics, etc.

Much of RC doctrine relies on the concept in marketing called "brand loyalty", i.e., "we are the original"; this, of course, is a very powerful tool in controlling people's minds, hence it is so often used in marketing of products.

There is also the unscriptural concept that is pressed into the mind of the congregant that their priest is literallly their gatekeeper to heaven for them. Again, this transferrance from Christ alone as mediator (Scriptural), to an earthly man, a priest, as mediator between congregant and Christ, is a very powerful controlling device in the mind of the congregant. The congregant is lead down the path of believing "any help I can avail myself of in "convincing" Christ to hear my prayers, I ought to make use of it" obviously plays on superstition and is completely contrary to what the New Testament plainly teaches.

Which brings me to another point, superstition. The use of imagery, the carrying of medals, the use of "holy" relics - it's all geared towards controlling the minds of congregants that would fall prey to being superstitious. It never ceases to amaze me how Roman Catholics take physical tokens to be "holy".

More "knowledgeable" Roman Catholics I have asked or heard respond to this topic invariably mince words, as does the Vatican, and get into some wordplay where they are showing reverence to these objects they are not practicing idolatry. Well the test is very simple: can one take one's physical "object" and toss it in the garbage ? If one recoils at the notion - one is then evidencing that one has indeed ascribed some holy (i.e., "set apart for the Lord") character to the object. If one venerates, or reverences, or in any way thinks of it as somehow "special" in terms of a religious context, that's the very definition of idolatry.

I anxiously and yet patiently and confidently await the eventual correction of these errors, however the Lord may bring that about as throughout history Christ's Kingdom is victorious.

Psalm 110:1 "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Reformed denominations remain gladly accepting those who truly seek the truth of the Word of God that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 8:3 "And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live."

Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

[tbpiper]

Will you and your fellow Protestants stop calling Catholics heretics and, for some, not even recognizing us as Christians?

I personally have not been calling Catholic heretics. Its not up to me to police the church. Like Paul I would rather know nothing between us but Jesus Christ and him crucified. So if you don't mention Purgatory, I won't mention predestination.

[piusv]

“Jesus, in John 17, clearly calls us to be one and I think for those outside the Church, it’s important for them to understand that while there are differences within the Christian denominations, at the core we have so many areas of communality….”

He speaks just like the Vatican II Catholics: Not like a Catholic.

Here is true Catholic teaching:

And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends. For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: "That they all may be one.... And there shall be one fold and one shepherd,"[14] with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment. - Mortalium Animos, Pope Pius XI, 1928

I bring this up over and over again and Catholics still buy into the false ecumenism.

[NKP_Vet]

“How about Pope Francis speaking out loudly and clearly against the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Africa and elsewhere”

He’s spoke out more about it than any protestant leader has. Protestants IGNORE the slaughter of Christians when those Christian happen to be CATHOLIC! So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Bayard]

You don’t know what Catholics believe. Your words are plain ignorance.

[PieterCasparzen]

From the Vatican website:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm#2112

Idolatry

“2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: “Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.”42 God, however, is the “living God”43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.”44 Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast”45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46 “

Note carefully how the second commandment is not mentioned in the section labeled “Idolatry”.

The second commandment IS the actual commandment that forbids that very practice of Idolatry.

So why would the catechism on the Vatican website avoid mentioning the specific commandment prohibiting Idolatry in its own teaching on Idolatry ?

Just to refresh our memory, the second commandment:

Exodus 20

“4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”

Of course this leads us to the Vatican’s position on “icons”, which we read about in the catechism here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s1c2a1.htm#1159

Holy Images

“1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new “economy” of images:

Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27 “

Did you ever think about whether or not the Roman Catholic teaching that “Holy Images” are acceptable to God can be proven by citing passages of God’s Word, the Bible ?

There simply is no valid Scriptural proof for a Christian to consider any physical object as “sacred” or “holy”, because the second commandment specifically prohibits the practice.

[vladimir998]

We don’t pray to statues. We don’t worship Mary. Thus, your concerns are unwarranted. The Commandments demand that we only worship God (the Trinity). We do so. We also do not worship any statues, but we most certainly have religious art. The Jews also had religious art. They just didn’t worship it and neither do we.

[PieterCasparzen]

Once art is called “religious” art one is ascribing holiness to the art.

As I said above, would one toss the art in the garbage without giving it a second thought ?

If one does not ascribe any holiness to the art, one would not think twice about tossing the art in the garbage.

If someone knocks the head off a “religious” statue, are they “desecrating” it ?

If one considers them to have “desecrated” the statue, then one is ascribing holiness to the art.

The art of the Holy Temple of ancient Israel was specific to the Temple because the Temple was constructed based on direct revelation from God through the prophets. There is no New Testament analog to the Temple that is directed by the New Testament for Christian worship.

If you recall, the New Testament quite emphatically ends ceremonial law of the Old Testament in the sections which speak to the issue of Gentiles not being required to practice the Jewish rites and feasts.

[Old Yeller]

Since Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY there is nothing to stop and you are free to call us Christians.

Catholics will say whatever is necessary to get believers to stop "pestering" them. I am an ex-Catholic and know, because I used to do the same thing. Catholics worship Mary big time, no matter how much some deny it.

[PieterCasparzen]

We don’t worship Mary.

But RC doctrine include praying to Mary to "intercede" for us with "her son". Nowhere does the New or Old Testament specify that prayers should be prayed to anyone other than God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Those who are misled by this would do well to study their Bibles and seek the truth from the Word of God; they can see for themselves that Scripture condemns this.

Matthew 15:9 "9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Matthew 6:6 "6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

In response to the disciples request to be taught to pray, Jesus answered:

Luke 11

"1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."