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Can Society Determine Right and Wrong?
Catholic Answers ^ | March 15, 2016 | Karlo Broussard

Posted on 03/19/2016 3:12:27 PM PDT by NYer

A person with whom I was corresponding recently asserted that skeptics are free to hold that objective morality is derived from the society in which we live. In this view, he claimed, moral principles exist beyond the individual and thus are objective.

This correspondent is in good company with Richard Dawkins. To the question “How do we decide what is right and what is wrong?”, Professor Dawkins answers, "There is a consensus about what we do as a matter of fact consider right and wrong: a consensus that prevails surprisingly widely” (The God Delusion, 298).

But such morality is not objective in the true sense, because the moral principles are relative to cultural acceptance. As the late American philosopher Louis Pojman describes it, "There are no objective moral principles, but rather all valid moral principles are justified by virtue of their cultural acceptance" (Ethics: Discovering Right and Wrong, 23).

Francis Beckwith and Gregory Koukl, in their book Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air, call this view “Society Says Relativism.”

Is such a method of determining morality reasonable? Can we ground morality in what society says? Beckwith and Koukl give five reasons why the answer is no.

1. Impossible to criticize another society’s practices. 

If society determines what is right and wrong, then it would be impossible to criticize another society’s moral norms, no matter how bizarre. There would be no moral standard outside society’s decrees against which we could measure a society’s practices. Consequently, no judgment could be made on society. According to this view, we could not judge Nazis Germany’s behaviors as wrong. But this is absurd. We must be able to judge certain societal practices as wrong. Therefore, society cannot be the final arbiter for right and wrong.

2. Impossible to have immoral law. 

If “Society Says Relativism” were true, then the talk of immoral laws would be nonsense. Under such a view, society is the measure of morality, and thus every law is moral simply because it's a law. Since there is no measure of morality beyond society, there is no way to judge its laws as moral or immoral. But we know societies have instituted immoral laws. All we need do is think back to our own country’s segregation laws. Therefore, we must conclude there exists a standard beyond society that determines right and wrong.

3. Moral reformers would be criminals. 

If it were true society is the measure of morality, then anyone who attempts to change the societal codes would be deemed immoral. How could a social reformer be moral if he or she is going against what society views as moral? The answer is he or she couldn't! According to this view, Martin Luther King Jr. would have to be considered a criminal, since he fought against what society deemed a moral norm. But no reasonable person would come to that conclusion. Therefore, a moral standard outside society must exist.

4. The concept of moral progress as a society is incoherent. 

If right and wrong are determined by what society says, then it’s impossible for society to ever improve in the moral sphere. In order to achieve moral progress, a society would first have to be wrong and then change for the better. But in Society Says Relativism, a society cannot be wrong, since it is the measure of morality. Whatever it says is moral. Therefore, social moral progress is impossible. But we know social moral progress is possible. Anyone in his right mind acknowledges that our society has progressed morally by banning racial segregation laws. Therefore, there must exist some standard of morality beyond society.

5. It reduces morality to might makes right. 

If morality is determined by society, then morality is reduced to might makes right. Consider the fact that laws are made by those who have the most power—either the power of government or of the majority. So, if Society Says Relativism is true, then the one with the most power will always determine morality. But this is the same mentality as the tyrannical forms of government every rational person rejects. Therefore, there must exist a standard of morality that exists beyond the most powerful human governments and societies.

So where does that standard lie? One option is the individual’s judgments; but this is subject to many of the same critiques mentioned above plus more—critiques that must be saved for another discussion. Without getting into great detail, the standard must lie in that which is common to all humans: namely, human nature.

When discerning appropriate human behavior, we must ask, “What is good for man?” The answer to that question is found in human nature. Human nature is inherently directed to certain ends or goals and the achievement of those goals is what constitutes human flourishing (e.g., self-preservation, knowledge of the truth, propagation and education of the species, and social existence). Therefore, correct human behavior—that which is good for man as such—is behavior that allows and helps human nature to achieve those ends.

It is this standard of human nature from which morality must be derived in order for it to be rational and truly objective.

Of course, for such a law to be morally obligatory, there must be a transcendent being from which human nature derives it dignity, i.e., God. But that’s for another time! 



TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
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1 posted on 03/19/2016 3:12:27 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; Salvation; ...

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 03/19/2016 3:12:52 PM PDT by NYer (Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy them. Mt 6:19)
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To: NYer

“When there are no absolutes to govern society, society becomes the absolute.”——Francis Shaeffer

A perfect case in point.


3 posted on 03/19/2016 3:17:42 PM PDT by Fungi
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To: NYer

Right is that which is in conformity with our human nature. Our human nature informs every atom and every cell. It is not subject to change by governments.


4 posted on 03/19/2016 3:29:16 PM PDT by I want the USA back (The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it. Orwell.)
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To: NYer

Very good. I’m a big fan of presenting an argument that is both succinct and rational. Bravo.


5 posted on 03/19/2016 3:31:33 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.)
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To: NYer

Humans operate from cost versus benefit.
Morality/gods are constructs to make us versus them, so it must benefit,but everything has a downside to it.

Example: would Hitler getting aborted been moral,would assassinating him been moral and just at any point in his time line? How about if his parents were killed?


6 posted on 03/19/2016 3:41:27 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: NYer

Without moral law, the rule is, if it feels good, do it.


7 posted on 03/19/2016 3:42:39 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: NYer

I believe there is a reason God tells us of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. Also His admonition not to eat thereof, lest we would surely die.

Every human being now has that knowledge in them.

It is a fundamental problem, because that ability to discern good and evil, is too easily confused as a counterfeit substitute for our direct relationship with God through faith in Christ. As soon as we slip into that reliance, instead of through faith in Christ first, we fall out of fellowship with Him.

It manifests the nature of sin.

One step removed, morality can either be used as a counterfeit substitute for being in fellowship with Him, or it can scar us into legalism and good works without faith, which are simply good for nothingness in His Plan.


8 posted on 03/19/2016 3:49:04 PM PDT by Cvengr ( Adversity in life & death is inevitable; Stress is optional through faith in Christ.)
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To: I want the USA back

These quotes may be relevant.

“The law of nature and the law of revelation are both Divine: they flow, though in different channels, from the same adorable source. It is indeed preposterous to separate them from each other.”

— James Wilson (of the Law of Nature, 1804)

“To grant that there is a supreme intelligence who rules the
world and has established laws to regulate the actions of his creatures; and still to assert that man, in a state of nature, may be considered as perfectly free from all restraints of law and government, appears to a common understanding altogether irreconcilable. Good and wise men, in all ages, have embraced a very dissimilar theory. They have supposed that the deity, from the relations we stand in to himself and to each other, has constituted an eternal and immutable law, which is indispensably obligatory upon all mankind, prior to any human institution
whatever. This is what is called the law of nature....Upon this law depend the natural rights of mankind.”

— Alexander Hamilton


9 posted on 03/19/2016 3:53:34 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Half the truth is often a great lie. B. Franklin)
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To: NYer

In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.


10 posted on 03/19/2016 4:02:35 PM PDT by Scrambler Bob (As always, /s is implicitly assumed. Unless explicitly labled /not s. Saves keystrokes.)
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To: SaraJohnson

Which morality?
All of it is cost vs. benefit.
The benefit must equal or be greater than the cost, or morality flew out the window.


11 posted on 03/19/2016 4:03:05 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: NYer
"There is a consensus about ... right and wrong: a consensus that prevails surprisingly widely”

You mean like homosexuality, a practice that is almost universally condemned in every society around the globe and has been for all of recorded history, but that is now being labeled as "normal"?

12 posted on 03/19/2016 4:05:37 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: NYer
Ultimately, these relativists end up defeating their own arguments, since they argue that their relativism is an absolute.

"God does not exist" is an absolute statement.

13 posted on 03/19/2016 4:07:56 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: IronJack

Deeming something abnormal that has been around for all of recorded history belabors the definition of ‘normal.’


14 posted on 03/19/2016 4:10:24 PM PDT by sparklite2 ( "The white man is the Jew of Liberal Fascism." -Jonah Goldberg)
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To: NYer
""But the most remarkable thing is this. whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking on to him he will be complaining 'It's not fair' before you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter, but then, next minute, they spoil their case by saying that the particular treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter, and if there iis no such ting as Right and Wrong--in other words, if there is no Law of Nature--what is the difference between a fair treaty and an unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that, whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else?""

~CS Lewis

15 posted on 03/19/2016 4:11:05 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: NYer

“consensus” is just another way of saying “mob rule”.

Another reason to appreciate our founders framework of a the US being a republic - not a democracy.


16 posted on 03/19/2016 4:15:19 PM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: Cvengr

“I believe there is a reason God tells us of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. Also His admonition not to eat thereof, lest we would surely die.”

So what you are saying is god left a loaded .45 on the table in reach of people that knew no sin, therefore innocent.

“Every human being now has that knowledge in them.’

Do you mean after he told those innocents what would happen,or before?

“It is a fundamental problem, because that ability to discern good and evil, is too easily confused as a counterfeit substitute for our direct relationship with God through faith in Christ. As soon as we slip into that reliance, instead of through faith in Christ first, we fall out of fellowship with Him.”

Are you saying that you have no proof of god? Proof always denies the need for faith like “checks in the mail.”

“It manifests the nature of sin.”
What is the biblical definition of sin?

“One step removed, morality can either be used as a counterfeit substitute for being in fellowship with Him, or it can scar us into legalism and good works without faith, which are simply good for nothingness in His Plan.”

How do you prove what you claim to be true, true?
Just curious.


17 posted on 03/19/2016 4:18:53 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: NYer; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; boatbums; ...
When discerning appropriate human behavior, we must ask, “What is good for man?” The answer to that question is found in human nature. Human nature is inherently directed to certain ends or goals and the achievement of those goals is what constitutes human flourishing (e.g., self-preservation, knowledge of the truth, propagation and education of the species, and social existence). Therefore, correct human behavior—that which is good for man as such—is behavior that allows and helps human nature to achieve those ends. It is this standard of human nature from which morality must be derived in order for it to be rational and truly objective. Of course, for such a law to be morally obligatory, there must be a transcendent being from which human nature derives it dignity, i.e., God. But that’s for another time!

Another time indeed, as atheists can argue that correct human behavior is that which is good for man to achieve self-preservation, knowledge of the truth, propagation and education of the species, and social existence...

It is what ultimately defines these things that is the issue. Stalin and the like would argue achieving these goals required their policies, as would popes who required the extermination of those Rome decreed were heretics, as did early Prots.

However, at least the latter could appeal to a document that came to be established as the supreme s wholly God-inspired standard on faith and morality, bue to its Divine qualities and attestation, even though, as with a Constitution, it can be subject to varying degrees of interpretation.

In contrast, in atheism the individual is the supreme standard, not simply in deciding he will assent to one and interpret it, but atheism collectively rejects any one sure and supreme standard, and each can autocratically assert his own morality is superior to all moral documents, even that of God.

18 posted on 03/19/2016 4:22:23 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212

If an atheist can do all that, then god becomes just some powerless pitiful ineffectual being. How sad.


19 posted on 03/19/2016 4:29:10 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: HWGruene

Which morality?


The morality of Western civilization. Ever hear of that?


20 posted on 03/19/2016 4:33:51 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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