Posted on 06/11/2019 8:45:31 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Yes. Conflating “Ashkenazi” and “Jewish” is a recipe for confusion.
A person who holds a belief in direct contradiction with the Torah is not a Jew, though they may be Ashkenazi.
Failure to make the distinction leads to actual Jews like myself being blamed for anti-Judaic Communists who happen to be of Ashkenazi ethnicity also.
I’m not their human shield and refuse to let Judaism be misappropriated by them to impose that risk on me and other innocent and genuine Jews.
Have there not been heretical sects through the ages, who accepted a man as Messiah or Moshiach? Were these met with violence?
Seems to me that there is far too much focus upon bad behavior directed toward Jews by religionists well after Jesus was on this earth in the flesh, and not enough upon what the man himself said and did. He was a Jew, as were his contemporary followers.
If Messianic Jews, so called, are actually being deceptive then that is not godly behavior. But, I fail to see based upon my admittedly outsider point of view, how they cannot possibly be Jewish.
Too much fixation upon “religion” and not enough upon scripture, a fair amount of which we share, that’s what it sounds like to me.
Ping.
So why mention it, assuming any of it is even true?
(Do any non-Christian sources report any of this?)
ML/NJ
If they don’t follow Judaism, messianic Jews are not Jewish. (Of course they might be born Jewish, that’s different). But they do follow Christianity, so they are by default Christian.
The most famous one who proclaimed himself the messiah was excommunicated from Judaism. He might be the only guy who ever was?
I disagree.
While this is true for most who call themselves Messianic Jews, it is not true for all. I sometimes have a good time asking proselytizing Messianic Jews what they have to say about this week's Torah portion. Most give me a look that indicates they aren't even aware there is such a thing. (And lets face it. Many JINOs would have the same reaction.)
But some years ago one of them answered me quite precisely. This was a woman I met at the Ein Gedi Resort near the Dead Sea. She talked about Shabbat and other things much the way I might, but she also believed that Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were fundamentally accurate. Very interesting girl.
ML/NJ
Excellent post. Way better than mine written at a gas station. That’s my excuse. Lol.
The first believers who believed Jesus was a man remained Jewish—albeit with the wrong choice of messiah. I don’t believe you’ll find any of them around today. Heretical Jewish movements, like the Sadducees (who were very sad, you see) have mostly died out, though there are some self-described Karites in Israel today.
As soon as Christianity adopted the trinity, you cannot say it was Jewish in any respect at all— and the bulk of converts were formerly pagan, weren’t they?
“To the Jew first...” is a natural desire of a break-away group that wants to find validation and comfort in its choice to disregard the Torah. Nothing more or less. It irks Christendom that stubborn Jews won’t believe them and have a tradition a thousand years older than theirs.
We just celebrated the 3,331st anniversary of receiving the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, from G-d’s own mouth (so to speak.) He did not say to believe in a man-god some time in the future.
(this thread will be pulled.... )
Oh, so Judaism, according to you, is a "false" religion? And who appointed you arbiter of which religions are "true" and which religions are "false"? You're really on a roll today, buddy. Wack and roll.
Yeshua IS the truth.
Only for messyonics like you. Duh.
“...The first belivers remained Jewish...”
I’ve been around a long time and this is the first I’ve heard of this sect. I’ve known Jews who converted to Christianity and vice versa, but not an ancient tribe of Jews who worship Jesus.
“Jews regard “Messianic Jews” (who are not Jews in any sense of the word)”
That doesn’t make sense.
If your mother is Jewish, you’re Jewish. If you’re a Messianic Jew with a Jewish mother, you’re JEWISH. That’s - at least - one sense of the “word” JEWISH.
Yours is the mindset that crucified Christ and has persecuted Christians for 2000 years!! Jews like you reject and hate both Jewish and Gentile Christians.
You put your trust and faith in Moses Law, Torah, Talmud, Rabbis and Jewish culture. Good luck with that!!
Jesus (Yeshua) said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father (God), except through me!"
Unless you're willing to put yourself, your family, your culture, your religion - under the preeminence of Christ (Yeshua/Jesus) in your life - you will die in your sins.
The best thing you could do for yourself is to find a Christian Rabbi and have an OPEN conversation with him. I assume you live in/near NYC, which has many Messianic congregations. Although not in NYC, I would recommend Rabbi David Chernoff of Philadelphia, re: http://www.cby.org/
These "scum" that you hate are my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Frankly, I am waiting for and look forward to Israel coming to Christ. It's time!! Rabbi Saul (Paul the apostle) prophesied that when Israel comes to Christ, it will be like a resurrection from the dead. Gentiles have been grafted into the tree of life through Christ. Israel is the natural branch but has been blinded. It's way overdue that Jews take their place in the body of Christ. Go find a Messianic Rabbi and have an OPEN conversation with him. Are you willing to seek and find God and truth - regardless of what it costs?
“Christian” came after, Jesus and followers were Jews. Not very popular with other Jews, true.
I’ve been through many of these arguments. The bottom line is that many Christians think that it is perfectly appropriate for them to dictate what Judaism is and who is Jewish. Not only that, but they have no compunction about telling you your religion is wrong and you are only OK if you accept the Christian messiah. So, if some Christians calling themselves Jews want to engage deceptively in Christian Missionary activities, there’s nothing wrong with that.
It is a given that each person of faith thinks they have the right one and everyone else is wrong. Fine. But here on FR, I have always expected that we will do each other the mutual courtesy of not invalidating each other’s beliefs. As this thread shows, things quickly descend into pretty ugly places when that happens.
So, to all my friends, I won’t insult your religion and I hope you will not insult mine.
If a Jew were to convert to a mainstream Christian denomination, such as Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy because they decided they believed in its tenets, would you object?
Jesus was of Hebrew or Jewish descent, His mother tongue was likely Aramaic, so his given name was probably Yeshua. People who call Jesus “Yeshua” probably do so because that was His actual name.
Mainstream Christian born and bred.
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