I then mark my notes before writing a report for us all to go over. The highlighted words are me to be sure all proper names of the persons of the Godhead are capitalized. We are also capitalizing all references to the three persons of the Godhead, like Him, Whom, He, etc. etc.
The penciled Xs are my marks on the times they used trust instead of faith.
A very interesting post. Thanks, OneVike. Is this an offshoot of dispensationalism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cs3Pvmmv0E
See a miracle. Look in the mirror.
I pinged you, because we either discussed Scripture and Christian topics, or I have read comments by you on religious matters. Thus I know you have shown you have a grasp of understanding the Scriptures. Thus you could be of help to me in my current predicament.
thanks for your homepage
love
New translations are perversions using the corrupt texts of Westcott and Hort and the Alexandrian texts. You do well to stick with the time-tested and proved 1611 King James Bible. You’ll find that the law of first mention is more times than not the best definition of a word, and many times the word is defined within the immediate context of its use.
As to assisting in the preparation for a further attempt of Satan to ask the age-old question, “Yea, hath God said?” I’ve no interest.
For me the difference is the source: Faith is a gift and Trust is how we treat it.
Trust is the result of experience. I trust, for example, that there will be solid ground beneath my feet when I step outside. Faith is a commitment to the unknown or unknowable. For example, I have faith that the people of this nation will not completely succumb to the lies and false promises of Marxism.
For Trust you know what is involved and you see that there is reason to feel that way about a person etc
For Faith, God is involved and you dont know but have hope and you go ahead and believe that He will do as He has promised for your circumstance...
In Faith there is blessings from God..God is pleased with those who obey and have Faith in Him...
For trust it just came out as you thought it might...
Hebrews 11:1, 6
My two cents — Trust tells me that one feels an assurance that God will work things out as He sees fit, and that’s OK. Faith is the knowledge that God loves us and that what He wills is what is best for us because He wants us to be saved.
Trust is good but incomplete. If one has Faith, then one also must Trust.
I think faith is the better word just because centuries of use in a biblical context have attached much of characteristics which distinguishes the word from trust, which granted, in some respects is a synonym. It is the best English word to express the meaning Paul meant to convey when drafting the letters in Koine Greek.
And if you want a literal translation that takes into account Greek language, words, sentence structure, verb tense, etc.,. than you will not do better than The New Testament: An Expanded Translation, by Wuest.
RE: My personal belief is, that when you consider a theological point, there can only be one modern English word that could properly convey what the author was intending to get across as to the reason they wrote the letter.
I am a Christian with a strong belief that the Bible is God's inspired word and inerrant. I am part of a small group of men who have been training pastors in two Latin American countries last year. That being said, Biblical Theology dictates, as you have implied, that original context provides a strong direction for determination of original meaning. Because the "real" meaning of the text is the original, inspired, meaning. It will be the meaning that would have been understood by the original intended audience.
One of my favorite phrases from a Biola class on hermeneutics is: The Bible is not written to you!
That same professor continues by pointing out that even though the Bible is not written to you, it is certainly written FOR you!
It was written to people who existed in a different culture, in a different land, speaking a different language, living at a different time. Thus, the expositor must make an attempt to "translate" him or herself back to that original context.
Fortunately, most of the important doctrines do not hinge on this contextual view. For instance, Christ saying "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except by Me." [my paraphrase], transcends the cultural and temporal divide, for the most part.
Getting back to your original stipulation that there can be only one English word which conveys the proper meaning stands context on its head. The Bible was never written in English. There is no guarantee that all Hebrew and Greek words can be properly translated into one particular English word.
Even if one finds a very strong correlation, there is still the possibility that a modern English reader will pick an English variant not intended by the translator.
I would advise you to spend some time in a few technical commentaries that deal with the Greek and the Hebrew. The WBC, World Bible Commentary series, comes to mind. You will soon find that these people with a lot of experience in the original languages struggle to find the appropriate words and phrases for translation and will many times supply variants which will have followings among others who also attempt to achieve faithful translations.
Further, to trivialize the process into "word for word" shows a naivete about how translations can be done. I read some French. There are many cases where one French word must be translated into many English words and vice versa. Certainly, word order cannot be preserved without doing grave damage to the meaning.
Pastors who pay attention employ the NASB when they want the closest word for word translation. They have to put up with it being slightly stilted. Our church, which is a Bible church with a slant towards Baptist theology, uses the ESV in the pews. It is a modern variant with an attempt to keep to original word meanings.
Bookmark for tomorrow. I’ve had a note in my bible for years: What is the difference in Faith & Trust?
One of many such notes.
Faith in English implies a mental attitude.
Trust in English implies that attitude put into action.
The Hebrew concept of faith is closer to the second. Hebrews 11 gives one example of the first, then proceeds to prove the first by a long list of the second. The Hebrew concept of truth is that “it happened.”
Paul was a Hebrew; I doubt he could conceive of faith not acted upon. However, I suspect this position is not very popular.
Good responses on this thread.
Faith holds more power.
Trust can be diluted.
Congratulations on the honor of being selected to edit a Bible translation.
This is my take...
“Trust” is based in expectation of outcome. Which comes from reasoning that says... if all things being equal, that the outcome of a previous event will most likely repeat itself, or...
That which can be reasoned by rational thought. Such as relying on the observation of behavior; or the result of a cause and its effect that would most likely produce/repeat an expected outcome. Either way... there is no unknown relied upon, only expectation upon/from the object of your trust. But indeed trust can always give way, or fail, to the unexpected influence of chance.
“Faith” is based in desire of outcome. Which comes from belief that says... there exists a metaphysical/divine influence, an unknown, that must be relied upon that will have a hand in producing a desired outcome. There is no reason by rational thought, only a desire/fulfillment from the object of your faith. It is also possible that faith can be fulfilled, or desire made real, by the unexpected influence of chance.
Not being a scholar of Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew or Chaldea, for exegetical study I most often reference Dr, Spiros Zodhiates’ The Complete Word Study Old Testament and The Complete Word Study New Testament with Greek Parallel (KJV due to integrity of the underlying Masoretic Text and Textus Receptus). I also utilize the KJV+ version in e-Sword (available for free download at e-Sword.net).
There are a number of different words translated as faith, The same applies for trust.
In the case of the passages in Galatians, the underlying Greek word they are translating as “trust” is most often the anarthrous form (used to emphasize the quality) of the noun “pistis”. This is translated as “faith” in the KJV and most Textus Receptus-based translations. A related derivation of the root word is sometimes also translated as “trust”, but not the same derivation as those for “faith” in the Galatians passages referenced.
Quoting Zodhiates: “Pistis; from peitho, to persuade. Being persuaded, faith, belief. In general, it implies such a knowledge of, assent to, and confidence in divine truths, especially those of the gospel, as produces good works...” There is much more and the meaning may vary somewhat depending on the specific passage.
Personally, I think of “faith” as “firm persuasion”.
As for “trust”, a close in context parallel would be from the passage in II Corinthians 3:4 where the Greek “pepoithesis” from “peitho” is translated as “trust” in the KJV.
Depending on the passage, “trust” could be defined as the object of confidence (e.g., our sufficiency is in God through Christ).
Hope the above helps. Exegesis reminds me how insufficient English (or even Greek) is to fully explain the Living Word.
You may also wish to reference the Literal Standard Version Bible (LSVBible.com)
I agree with those who said it is important to uncover, and then place the stress on, what the original meaning of the text (in it's context) was to the original listeners. Only then can we make a corollary to what it might mean to us in English. That is only proper exegesis.
Having said that, it seems to me that trust is only part of what is meant by faith in the New Testament. Faith involves what we think of as trust, but it also means much more. It also involves committing one's self to the object of faith-- in this case God or Christ. This commitment is much more that intellectual acknowledgement or creedal "said" faith, but also results in obedience and the willingness to suffer the loss of all things.
To use trust and faith interchangeably or synonymously or substituting truth when the text says faith (pistis), for example, would not serve the reader well.
To me, trust seems to be more absolute than faith in some situations...Example:
Luk_17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
For me it's hard to understand how you can trust someone just a little bit or partially...Again:
Rom_14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Another example:
2Co_10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
Again, it seems to me you trust or you don't...And in some places it just doesn't fit in the sentence:
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith trust; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Heb_11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb_11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Faith seems to have some super natural connotations connected to it...I'm thinking trust would more be the result of things that ARE seen...
Some information on who is doing the translation. These are two very well educated scholars who have 5 years of seminary training on Koine Greek between them, plus numerous years of self study since they have graduated and been ordained.
There were somewhere between 47-54 real scholars who translated the King James Bible...The most of them were teachers and experts in their fields with decades of experience and knowledge...I have no reason to doubt their translating ability so I'll stick with them...
Your already over my pay scale. And since I arrived late, I don’t think I can add anything that hasn’t already been stated. I’m happy to see that your objective is a Word for Word translation.
So I offer prayers.
That is a tricky passage. The cases where Paul is clearly saying we are to trust in God BECAUSE are the most obvious places for usage of tye word “trust” as in belief based on facts, eg “we trust the evidence”
While at the start the word “faith” as in belief sans evidence, is the correct usage. For Abraham the word is ambiguous.