Why Christians Don't Understand Non-Christians

ArGee | 1/3/01 | ArGee

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Reminds me of an old story that I wish I had written, but didn't:

Several centuries ago, the Pope decided that all the Jews had to leave Rome. Naturally, there was a big uproar from the Jewish community, so the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a member of the Jewish community. If the Jew won, the Jews could stay. If the Pope won, they would have to leave.

The Jews realized they had no choice, so they selected a middle-aged man named "Moishe" to represent them. Moishe asked for one addition to the debate. To make it more interesting, neither side would be allowed to talk, and the Pope agreed.

The day of the great debate came. They sat opposite one another for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed 3 fingers. Moishe looked back at him and raised 1 finger.

The Pope then waved his fingers in a circle around his head. Moishe pointed to the ground where he sat.

The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of wine.

Moishe pulled out an apple.

The Pope stood up and said, "I give up. This man is too good. The Jews can stay."

An hour later, the cardinals were all around the Pope asking him what happened. The Pope said, "First I held up 3 fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up 1 finger to remind me that there was still one God common to both our religions. Then I waved my finger around me to show him that God was all around us. He responded by pointing to the ground and showing that God was right here with us. I pulled out the wafer and wine to show that God absolves us from our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of original sin. He had an answer for everything. "What could I do?"

Meanwhile, the Jewish Community had crowded around Moishe.

"What happened?" they asked.

"Well," said Moishe. "First he said to me that the jews had 3 days to get out of here. I told him that not one of us was leaving. Then he told me that this whole city would be cleared of Jews. I told him that we were staying right here.

"And then?" asked a woman.

"I don't know," said Moishe. "He took out his lunch, so I took out mine."

[Cogadh na Sith]

Hahahaha! I knew that would spin you up, too!

[discostu]

But did you buy the t-shirt? I bought the t-shirt, but I outgrew it quickly.

[Blue_Ridge_Mtn_Geek]

I understand Christianity, and Islam, and Judaism, and Scientology, etc, etc. I just don't believe any of them are TRUE. Simple as that.

The Christians here will claim that I REFUSE to believe for perverse reasons, but this is only to make themselves feel better about their own belief by "explaining away" the skepticism of others. Such arguments (or, more correctly, accusations) will only tend raise more red flags for a principled skeptic. Men of intellectual character are justifiably suspicious of those who make matters of fact (e.g. whether Jesus was God) matters of morality.

This is not a matter of morality (the above Christian parable, that is), simply a matter of realizing that one is estranged from ones Creator, that no means exist of overcoming the estrangement other than the means provided by the Creator on the Creator's terms, and then choosing to either accept that provision (on the Creator's terms), or not.

If it were a matter of morality, none would have any hope, since all (every one of us), fail to adhere totally even to the truncated, self-defined versions of morality that we settle for, no less living up to the standard set by the Creator. That perfect standard we have all failed to meet - - thus the need for divine provision to reverse the consequences of that failure.

Accepting the Creator's provision for ending the estrangement will have important implications over time for one's moral condition, but that's a separate matter, a long term result of the original choice, rather than a cause of it.

Choosing to reject the Creator's provision simply results in your remaining perpetually in the state in which you were born and matured: numbered among the estranged, with all the promised sanctions associated with that condition.

It is true that Christian doctrine asserts that an element of perversity accompanies the refusal to acknowledge the circumstances under which the Creator's offer of provision are being made (Paul refers in Romans 1:18 to those who reject the Creator's provision, and even refuse to acknowledge that they have a Creator to whom they are accountable, as those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"), but this is like all of the other self-deceptions we commit against ourselves, in adjusting the scales of our personal worthiness measures to make our deviations from the "most worthy" category seem inconsequential - - - except in this case the consequences of the self-deception are not small, in fact they are vast, even eternal.

Once again, the choice itself is not a matter of morality, it's a matter of accepting one's need for reconciliation with a justifiably furious creator, and either accepting the provision that the Creator has made to meet this need, or not. And the consequences are completely dependent on whether the claims made by or on behalf of this Creator are true. So, if the claims are not true, no sweat. On the other hand, if they are true - - - some sweating over the choice would certainly be in order.
(John 3:17-21 and 35-36).

[mn12]

If 990 coin flips in a row are tails, the chances are pretty good that flip 991 will be tails as well. And by the time you get to flipping coin 1000, it stands to reason it'll be tails, too.

Are you saying that any given religion has a 50/50 chance of being correct? And its correctness is determined by chance? Interesting...

[Eternal_Bear]

God is the Infinite Transcendental Heart.

There is no Hell except in people's minds.

There is nothing we can do to offend the Creator because we are too small.

Do not judge others because everyone's spiritual experiences are different.

You will reap what you sow. God will always forgive you for your sins but you will have to ask forgiveness of those you have offended. That will hurt because you will experience how you looked to that person as you did what you did. However, you will experience how others reacted when you did good and loving things.

Scriptures were written by fallible men. If you want to experience the Creator go to your Heart and follow the Golden Rule.

The Kingdom of Heaven will manifest on Earth when everyone sees the Creator in others.

The Truth does not need to be defended. It will always out eventually.

[RnMomof7]

God didn't open the doors to Heaven and let me in, He opened the doors to Hell and let me out.

Amen Brother..Too many do not understand the bondage they are in!

[Celtjew Libertarian]

So the question boils down to; what do you believe in and why?

Definitely. I'm just saying that someone who looks into his heart and finds that he believes in Hinduism cannot be logically rejected as wrong, at least on the example you gave.

It's a minor point and I'm given to pilpul at times.

[Cogadh na Sith]

Are you saying that any given religion has a 50/50 chance of being correct?

Sure, 'cuz either you will go to hell, or not...

[stingrayfm]

What I'm questioning is why God would have created many doors into the feast and then demanded that we use one particular door. So the reason I'm questioning why the rule was made is because it appears to be non-sensical and I'd like to think that God is anything but non-sensical.

As far as Him carrying me to the door, it is still not as easy as walking through the door directly in front of me (the very door that He's most likely poking his head out of to tell me to use the other door!).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to deny God or the "feast" which He has prepared. I'm just trying to point out what seem to me to be flaws in the analogy.

[Cogadh na Sith]

God didn't open the doors to Heaven and let me in, He opened the doors to Hell and let me out.

Cool! I'm straight outta Hell!

[soundsolutions]

What would qualify as verifiable evidence to you? Let’s start with Jesus, did he historically exist? Or was it all a myth?

[discostu]

Friend, time is too short and the subject too important to waste our time on what if.

You inadvertently hit the nail on the head. This is the core difference between the believer (regardless of belief) and the non-believer. To me it's all about "what if" because the "what if" is the entire question. With all those sect of all those religions if only one is right my chances of picking the right one by chance are negligable, so I've got to study the situation and pick the right one through knowledge and understanding. Because according to most of the religions the what if that happens if I pick wrong is some form of eternal torment, what I still haven't figured out is exactly which eternal torment I'm trying to avoid, once I figure that one out I'll be most of the way to actually figuring which religion really is the one true religion.

[soundsolutions]

I disagree with you, because the claims of Hinduism directly contradict the claims of Jesus. So just in my example here, one is wrong or both are wrong, but both cannot be right.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

What I'm questioning is why God would have created many doors into the feast and then demanded that we use one particular door.

It's the servants entrance. Only servants of God are allowed through.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

I mean it is logical in terms of not contradicting itself. Once you believe in Jesus (or Judaism in my case) it drops out as a possibility. But from the standpoint of someone who is not convinced by any faith, it is not illogical.

And that's the problem -- if you are trying to convince someone to accept Jesus, who has not yet accepted Jesus, you cannot use logic that is axiomatic on belief in Jesus to achieve that.

[abandon]

Let's not vote in elections, then, either.........

Yes, if we were told that voting the wrong way would get us killed.

[soundsolutions]

To be extremely accurate, Christianity is the only one that is not a “religion” and it’s claims differ from all other religions in this way; Christianity is the only one to claim that man is a fallen being born into a state of condemnation, and misses the mark of perfection which God requires, for one to be with him for eternity. Not only does God require that one be morally perfect, he cannot have it any other way, because it would go against his perfect nature.

[stingrayfm]

Labelling it a servant's entrance makes no difference. As we are all servant's of God, then I'm still left wondering why the other doors are off limits for entering. Who uses the other doors?