The Divine Trinity

One of the first things that a Catholic mother teaches her young child in the way of prayer is the sign of the cross. She shows the young one how to bless himself, while at the same time pronouncing the names of the three divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity. While the child at that age may understand little of the words pronounced, there will come in time a gradual awareness of this great mystery of our faith; for throughout one's life as a Catholic there will be frequent references in prayer, in the reception of the sacraments and in the liturgy to the Blessed Trinity.

The mystery of the Trinity is the very foundation of our Catholic faith. The Apostles' Creed is simply a brief expression of our faith in the three divine Persons. The history of our salvation rests upon the mystery of the Trinity. For God the FATHER sent His only-begotten Son into the world to redeem us. The SON gave his life in accomplishing that work of redemption; and the HOLY SPIRIT brings about the sanctification of each individual soul, by applying to the soul the graces merited by Christ's redeeming sacrifice. Our Christian life began when we were baptized in the name of those three divine Persons.

While we presume to write about the divine Trinity, we must confess that we are dealing with a mystery that no human or angelic mind can comprehend. Even St. Paul, who "was caught up to third heaven... and heard secret words that no man can repeat" (2 Cor.12:2) declared: "O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable are his ways" (Rom.11:33). Because of the vastness of this topic, these reflections can be only the barest outline.

By the light of reason alone man can arrive at the knowledge of the existence of a supreme being who is responsible for the order in the universe; but he could never arrive at a knowledge that in the one true God there are three Persons. And even after Christ revealed it, it is still for us an incomprehensible mystery. We believe this truth because God has revealed it to us. But to understand how it is so, we will have to await God's fuller revelation of Himself in the life to come. Nevertheless, the first Vatican Council assures us that human reason illumined by faith, can attain with God's help some fruitful understanding of this supernatural mystery.

A comparison between the human and the divine might shed some light on our enquiry. James, John and Peter are three distinct persons. Each one is endowed with his own human nature. Each one thinks and wills with his own individual intellect and will. James doesn't think with Peter's intellect, nor does James choose or command with John's will. They are three human persons with three distinct human natures, each with his own individual faculty of knowing and willing.

In the divine Trinity, however, while there are three distinct Persons, there is only one divine nature. The inner life of God is that of infinite knowledge and love. God knows infinitely, and loves infinitely; but all three divine Persons know and love with one and the same divine mind and divine will. And, as we shall see, from that infinite inner life of knowing and loving there issues the relationships on which the distinction between the divine Persons is based.

NOTE: Lest this be a source of confusion as regards Christ, the Redeemer, He is a divine Person having two natures, one divine and one human. It was His human will submitting to the divine will when He said: "Father, not my will, but yours be done" (Lk. 22:42).

A) Old Testament: The Old Testament does contain allusions to the Trinity, but they are so vague that before the coming of Christ no one was aware of their meaning. For example, the plurality of persons is implied in Genesis: "Let Us make man in Our image and likeness" (1:19). "Let Us then go down and there confuse their language" (11:17). And in the triple invocation Isaiah heard the Seraphim cry: "Holy, Holy, Holy, the Lord God of Hosts, all the earth is full of His glory" (6:3).

Message of Archangel Gabriel: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; hence, the holy offspring to be born will be called Son of God" (Lk.1:35).

At the baptism of Jesus: "After Jesus was baptized, he came directly out of the water. Suddenly the sky opened and he saw the Spirit of God descend like a dove and hover over him. With that, a voice from heaven (the Father's) said: 'This is my beloved Son. My favor rests on him' " (Mt.3:16).

At the Last Supper: "The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you" (Jn. 14:26).

Before the Ascension: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt. 28:19).

Since our faith tells us that there are three divine Persons in God, and since God had no beginning, the question comes to mind: why precisely three Persons, and what is the relationship between them? The Scriptures speak of the Father as the creator and source of all things. But he could not have created the Son and the Holy Spirit, otherwise they would be creatures, and not God. We know from our faith that they are divine Persons co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.

We find the answer to the origin of the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Church's teaching that in God there are two internal divine processions. The word procession is used here to mean the origin of one from another . . . one proceeding from another. And we speak of "internal" processions - referring to the inner life of God, as opposed to "external" procession, which refers to God's action in regard to creatures. Both the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT proceed from an imminent act of the Holy Trinity, i.e. from an internal divine procession by which one divine Person originates from another communicating totally one and the same divine essence. We shall see, however, that the manner of origin of the SON differs from that of the HOLY SPIRIT, because of the two diverse internal Processions in God. For example:

The origin of the SON is by way of generation. The Father begetting the Son by an eternal act of contemplating his own divine essence. The origin of the HOLY SPIRIT is by way of spiration. From the mutual and infinitely ardent mutual love of the Father and the Son there issues forth as from a single source a living FLAME OF LOVE which is a divine Person, the Holy Spirit, sharing perfectly in every way the divine nature of the Father and the Son. We will consider a bit more in detail these two internal processions that constitute the inner life of God.

When we speak of Father and Son in God, we have to keep in mind that God is a pure spirit, having no body. Consequently we must be careful not to confuse generation in God with the use of that term in regard to human generation. But even in human language we speak of conception as a mental process as well as physical. A woman conceives a child . . . and any adult can conceive an idea. "Who conceived that brilliant idea?" someone might ask.

It is in this spiritual sense that we speak of begetting in God. God the Father, whose knowledge and capacity of knowing is infinite, contemplates eternally His own divine being, His own divine essence. The IDEA or IMAGE or MENTAL WORD conceived of Himself in His own divine mind is an absolutely perfect living representation of the Father. This living image of Himself which the Father has been begetting from all eternity is a divine Person distinct from the Father. Sharing one and the same divine nature as the Father, He is the Father's only-begotten Son. As St. Paul expressed it: "This Son is the reflection of the Father's glory, the exact representation of the Father's being" (Heb.1:3).

We have no problem forming a mental image of the SON who became man, for many details of His life have been recorded for us. And we can in a vague way have a mental image in our imagination of the Father of whom our Blessed Lord spoke many times, and whose voice was heard at the baptism and transfiguration of His divine Son. But the images that the Scriptures give us of the Holy Spirit are only that of a dove at the baptism of our Lord, and of tongues of fire at Pentecost. Yet, the Holy Spirit is a divine Person distinct from the Father and Son, and sharing perfectly their divine nature.

The inner life of God is not only one of infinite knowledge from which comes forth the WORD BEGOTTEN, but one of infinite love from which comes forth the HOLY SPIRIT. Because the SON possesses the infinite perfection of goodness, knowledge, holiness, beauty and power of the Father, both divine Persons behold the infinite lovableness of each other. Yet, it is the function of love to reach out for what is lovable, and to give oneself without reserve to the one loved. There is a reflection of this in human love. However, the love of the FATHER for the SON, and of the SON for the FATHER is so perfect, and so complete is their giving of self, that there issues forth an infinite expression of this love in a living Person, co-eternal and co-equal with the Father and the Son. The Scriptures call this third divine Person the Holy Spirit because He is "breathed forth" by the love of the Father and the Son. As the Roman Catechism expresses it, the Holy-Spirit "proceeds from the divine will inflamed, as it were, with love."

THE EXTERNAL ACTIVITIES OF THE TRINITY So far we have been considering the interior activities, or the inner life, of the three divine Persons. The exterior activities of the Trinity are those, the term of which is outside of God, i.e. those that affect creatures. It is the teaching of the Church that all exterior activities of God are common to the three divine Persons. Any act of God on the created world is an act of the three divine Persons acting as a single principle. As St. Thomas explains, "to produce any effect in creatures is common to the whole Trinity, by reason of the oneness of their nature; since where there is one nature there must be one power and one operation" (III,23,3).

The external works of the Blessed Trinity are usually classified under three categories: the work of creation, of redemption and of sanctification. And even though, as we have just seen, all three divine Persons share in all of these external works, the Scriptures attribute the work of creation to the Father, of redemption to the Son, and of sanctification to the Holy Spirit. The attributing to individual divine Persons activities and qualities that pertain to all three Persons is referred to by theologians as APPROPRIATION. This is done to help clarify in our minds the distinction of the divine Persons themselves, and to shed some meager light on this unfathomable mystery. With this in view we will consider briefly each of the divine Persons.

Since the Father does not proceed from any other source, we think of Him as the origin of all things, as one of great power in producing all that exists. So the quality of omnipotence is attributed to Him. Thus the Church refers to Him in the Apostles' Creed as "the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth."

To the Father is attributed the wonderful Providence with which God cares for all that He has created, and especially for man made to His image and likeness. "Your Providence, Father, pilots all things" (Wis. 14:3). "Do not be anxious . . . your Father knows that you need all these things" (Mt.7:32). "Our Father who art in heaven. . . . Give us this day. . ." (Mt. 6:9).

THE SON Since the Son proceeds from the Father by way of knowledge as the perfect Image of the Father, there is attributed to the Son truth, wisdom and the order of the universe. Both His life and teaching are an expression of divine wisdom which, to the world, often appears as foolishness. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" (Jn. 14:6).

However, the human nature assumed in the Incarnation of the Word is not an appropriation. The second Person of the Trinity did assume human nature, and the Father and the Holy Spirit did not. Yet every act of the God-man, who is a divine Person, proceeds from divine omnipotence under the direction of divine wisdom and inspired by divine love, all of which are common to the three divine Persons acting as a single principle.

THE HOLY SPIRIT Because the Holy Spirit proceeds from the mutual love of the Father and the Son, works that are an expression of God's love are attributed to the Holy Spirit. Thus everything that contributes to our sanctification, every outpouring of divine grace, is attributed to the Holy Spirit. "The charity of God is poured forth into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who has been given to us" (Rom. 5:5).

It is clear from the Scriptures that God wishes us to use the appropriation of certain works to individual Persons of the Trinity to help clarify the distinctive characteristics of each of the three divine Persons. Our Lord Himself frequently spoke in such terms. Yet, as we have pointed out, although we attribute works of power, wisdom and love to different divine Persons, everything that happens in the world does so by the power, wisdom and love of all three divine Persons. Even the evil that befalls us is permitted by God's love, because in His infinite wisdom He can bring good out of evil.

In God's care for the world His infinite power, wisdom and love are inseparable. Nothing happens in this world that is not brought about or allowed by the will of God, i.e. of the three divine Persons. If we live by our faith and trust in the Holy Trinity, we will remember that God permits only what is for our ultimate good. How could it be otherwise when infinite wisdom directs and infinite love inspires all that is brought about or permitted by God's almighty power?

Our life is so intimately bound up with this greatest of mysteries, that it is of great importance that we realize its impact on our whole existence. God has made known this great mystery to us that we might have unfailing hope throughout life. No matter what befalls us, God can bring good out of every situation because His power, directed by His wisdom and love, is ordering the course of our life.

What a comfort it should be in times of distress, when the future looks bleak, when temptation increases, when sickness or injury is our lot, to know that we are sustained by the wisdom, love and power of God Himself. But this peace of mind and heart presupposes a deep faith that makes us aware of these truths, a trust that never doubts that God knows best, and a love that always says "yes" to God's dealing with us.

Your #10: I have been thinking about this subject quite a bit after a debate last week on the subject and the argument presented was that they had a different interpretation of the bible. But as I pointed out, the Bible is not a catechism or a full-scale theological treatise.

True, but if you are not careful in writing such a treatise, you can quickly depart from the Bible and go off in another direction, as they did in Nicea when trying to counter Arius.

I don't disagree at all with the Apostles' Creed (see #11), but the homoousion (one Being, one substance) in the Nicene Creed is not Biblical, and has led millions of Christians astray over the centuries, as far as having a correct understanding of the nature of God. It is not appropriate to elevate a creed, which is not the Word of God, to the level of Scripture.

We need to stick to the Word of God and to the apostles and prophets who have authority from God to write Scripture.

From the "God in Three Persons" link in #20: Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One office of a person cannot go to be with another office of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).

This argument against Modalism is an excellent argument against homoousion: "Because the Nicene Creed asserts that there is only one Being (or substance, Greek homoousios) in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages ..."

There are some important Bible passages that should be stressed:

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jesus explains how They are One:

John 17: 20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

They are separate Individuals (as in post #4) in three different places at the baptism of Jesus:

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

We are created in the image of God, male and female. This should be understood literally, not in the sense of spiritual image or moral image. It means we look like Him because He made us that way:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

In both cases this is God the Father talking to God the Son, one Individual speaking to Another:

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:28
28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,

Stephen saw them as separate Individuals just before he died:

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on [at] the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Now regarding John 4:24, Spirit is an attribute of God just as Love and Truth are. We are certainly not expected to leave our physical bodies to worship Him in spirit.

1 John 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

My post to Gophack

LDS Topical Guide: Corporeal Nature of God

(I wouldn't call this a debate, especially not on such a gentle thread as this. I much prefer a cordial discussion.)

Cordial discussion it is! And I thank you for the opportunity.

True, but if you are not careful in writing such a treatise, you can quickly depart from the Bible and go off in another direction, as they did in Nicea when trying to counter Arius.

That was my point entirely. The bible isn't a full scale treatise. Most of the epistles, were written to local churches that were experiencing moral and/or doctrinal problems. Paul and most of the other New Testament writers sent letters to these local churches (e.g., 1 and 2 Corinthians and Galatians) in order to rectify these problems. There was no attempt on the part of the writers to impart a vast body of basic doctrinal instruction to non-believers nor even to simply summarize everything for the believers who received the letters. The New Testament is not the entire basis of the Christian faith since the Christian faith existed and flourished for years before the first book of the New Testament was written. The books of the New Testament were composed decades after Christ ascended into heaven, and it took centuries for there to be general agreement among Christians as to which books comprised the New Testament.

The council of Nicea, held in 325, simply affirmed Christ's divinity. And the Nicene Creed, which we still say today is the tenets of what we believe, and what the doctors of the church believed even before Arius.

The only reason you and I have the New Testament canon is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the Catholic Church. As Augustine put it, ‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6). Any Christian accepting the authority of the New Testament does so, whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust that the Catholic Church made the right decision in determining the canon. [I can almost see some of our more fundamental brethren shuddering with disgust! lol]

The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the year 382 at the Council of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419). We accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical.

But again, the Bishops and doctors of the church promulgated doctrine before the gospels were even recognized. You mirror the Protestant claim that the Bible [excepting the book of mormon which I am purposely excluding for it has no bearing on the teachings of the Trinity] is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

I broke this into several posts so it wouldn't be so hard on the eyes. =)

Now, for those who reject catholic tradition the case can still be made in the New Testament.

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

In this passage, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are said to share one name (notice that the term "name" is singular, not plural), and that name is almost certainly Yahweh, the personal name of God in the Bible. We know this because the name Yahweh is applied to both the Father and the Son in the New Testament.

Peter tells us, "David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies a stool for your feet.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:34–36). Here God is "the Lord" who speaks to "my Lord," Jesus. When one looks at the Old Testament quotation, one finds, "Yahweh says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool’" (Ps. 110:1); so here the Father is called Yahweh.

In Philippians 2:10–11, we read: "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." This is a reference to Isaiah 45:18–24, which tells us: "I, Yahweh, speak the truth . . . I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn. . . . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. ‘Only in Yahweh,’ it shall be said of me, ‘are righteousness and strength.’ " Here Paul applies the prophecy of every knee bending and every tongue confessing to Jesus, resulting in the prophecy that they will "confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh." The stress on Christ as God is also picked up by the early Church Fathers.

Jesus himself declares that he is Yahweh ("I AM," in English translation). In John 8:58, when questioned about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." His audience understood exactly who he was claiming to be. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

With the personal name of God, Yahweh, being applied to both the Father and the Son, it is almost certainly applied to the Spirit, and thus to all three members of the Trinity.

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

And in my last post I will include some quotes by the fathers of the Church.

Notice that these teachings were promulgated before the New Testament came into existance. Scripture existed, but it hadn't been decided as yet what to include in the Canon. Still, the teaching was very clear on what early Christians thought about the Trinity.

Ignatius of Antioch

"To the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity" (ibid.).

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (ibid.).

Hippolytus

"The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Novatian

"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God" (Treatise on the Trinity 11 [A.D. 235]).

You really should provide your sources (for #47 and #48, the link in post #19).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints places strong emphasis on authority from God to speak and act in His Name, as Catholics do. Throughout the Bible, apostles and prophets were called of God to speak for God and to write what He commanded them to write. That is how our Bible came to be. The Lord still works in the same way today.

He gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter, His chief apostle, and where the apostles are not, the Keys of the Kingdom are not.

The Lord led a handful of Israelites across the ocean to the Americas around 600 BC, just before Nebuchadnezzar carried the Kingdom of Judah off to Babylon. He raised up prophets among them, and commanded them to write. The Savior visited them, some of His "other sheep", after His resurrection and ascension, and they wrote an account of His visit. An abridgement of what their prophets wrote over a thousand-year period was brought forth by the gift and power of God in modern times through a true apostle of Jesus Christ and prophet of God, who has authority to baptize and officiate in all other ordinances of the Gospel.

Authority to speak and act for God is a very important thing with us, not only to baptize, bestow the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and have the inspiration to interpret the Scripture we have, but to bring forth new Scripture, as the Lord commands, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as they did in Biblical times.

These are evidences that the Lord works the same way today as He did in times of old, as the Holy Spirit bears witness.

Your #50: Now, there is nothing in your answers that refutes what he says, or the article.

Refute ... that is a debate word. In one post I was going to the Bible for information on the nature of God (rather than to creeds or early fathers) and pointing out that homoousion, one Being or substance, is not taught there, quite the opposite. In the other post I was picking up on your view of the importance of authority from God, and adding a big Amen, talking about our teaching, and Bible teaching, about authority from God, its vital importance, and the blessings that come from having it on the earth in our day. Of course, those who do not receive it cannot be benefitted by it.

I do suggest we stick to the Word of God. You were suggesting that the Bible is too sketchy and needs to be filled in, and to me that shows the need, God willing, for a restoration of the Holy Apostleship and the inspiration, the correct understanding of the Scripture we have, and the additional Scripture that comes with that holy calling.

>> Mormon view on the Trinity is clearly different from Orthodox Christian doctrine, but you already knew that.

Now, should I let you have the phrase "Orthodox Christian" to define as you wish? Would the Eastern or Greek or Russian Orthodox be happy with that? Having true and living apostles of Jesus Christ at the head of the Church makes us the orthodox Christians, obviously!

As you can see, I only stayed away 4 days. They really should have a freeper anonymous for the addiction. ;)

I put up passages that outline on both old an new testament as to the nature of the trinity. It seems clear to me that from the earliest of times, Christians have taught that God is one in three divine persons. There are plenty of quotes and references to back this assertion up.

No, I am suggesting that the bible is not a treatise for outlining doctrine. While there are many passages that outline the essence of the Trinity, I think it is equally important to read what the first Christians taught and promulgated. They, after all, knew Christ and followed him as disciples. Their teachings carry a lot of weight with me as do the passages in the bible that have been outlined.

Your #54: The apostles and first Christians debated for a long time what to include in the bible.

Let's not include the apostles in that debate.

>> And you can't get away from the fact that they promulgated doctrine before they put together the bible.

Uninspired speculation is a natural human tendency, yes, which some in later generations will call doctrine, others heresy.

>> And how in the world do you know that the Catholic bishops and religious included the right books and letters?

You find that out when God sends another apostle to the earth.

LDS Articles of Faith 8-9
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

>> After all, you are taking Rome's authority when you use a bible.

The Eastern Orthodox churches may quibble with you just a bit on that. I am not sure you really want to put it quite that way either. After all, the compiler of a volume of English Literature doesn't become the author of the contents.

>> There were many other writing that weren't included and even the apocalypse was heavily debated. Many thought it didn't belong in the bible.

What to include in the canon of Scripture is not a proper subject of debate. That is evidence of a lack of authority and inspiration.

When you have inspired apostles and prophets upon the earth, as in the days of Peter, James, and John, and as in our day, the Lord tells them what He wants in the canon of Scripture, and He directs them to lay that before the Church so they can accept it as binding upon them, in matters of faith and doctrine, as the Word of God.

I believe the only book of the King James Bible that Joseph Smith said was uninspired, and thus included by mistake, is the Song of Solomon (Song of Songs). Read it again and you will see why. As for the apocrypha, some of which you guys include in the canon:

LDS Doctrine and Covenants 91:1-6
1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.
3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.
4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;
6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

LDS Bible Dictionary: Apocrypha

>> So you are stuck relying on revelation from John Smith who negated 1900 years of previous doctrine on the trinity.

His name is Joseph Smith. Having a proper understanding of what the Word of God says on such an important subject is worth far more than nineteen thousand years of the doctrines and speculations of men.

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as far as it is translated correctly;

read that to mean if it disagrees with our other books it is out