Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, period. It is what saves you. The purpose of spreading the gospel is so more people will be saved, because salvation is the only thing in this world worth having. Serious answer:)

OK, very good. (And I put the disclaimer in there so you didn't think I was being sarcastic or something ;o).

So to put it together, the purpose of the church is to spread the gospel, and the purpose of spreading the gospel is to save souls.

Now, once the souls are saved, what do you do with them then? Is there a point in continuing to preach a salvation message at every service to a group of people who are all already saved? Or, as Mack would say, should you move them from "milk" to "meat"?

The difference between Mack and Becky and me..is in the order of Salvation.

Since I'm not going to read through that whole "Spurgeon's View of the Millennium" thread, can you briefly summarize from your perspective what the differences are between your beliefs and Mack's? Is it just the predestination thing, or is there more?

They are "preaching" through their actions rather than their words.

Actions are important, no doubt. But our actions should go along with the word of God.

Rom. 1017 So then faith cometh by thearing and hearing by the word f God.

Our actions will not save a sould. Our words will not save a soul. People need to hear God's Word.

Becky

Sorry, Rn, but I see every program of the church in terms of outreach. All has potential. You might not have joined the church because of VBS, but I know of those who have. You might not have become a Christian because of a youth program, but I know of many who have.

All things to all people to win some. Programs are OK.

They are "preaching" through their actions rather than their words.

It is a fine balance here though Ang..even the heathans do good..so at some point I would expect a Christian to want to witness to a friend.We are to do all IN His name

Our ministry should not be contingent on the acceptance of the gospel by the other...but it should always be the desire of our heart to glorify God by our lives and our words..WOW am I parcing words huh:>)

Maybe I wasn't clear as to what the Pastor announced. He said every activity should have a devotional given with the plan of salvation being PART of that devotional.

He gives the plan of salvation every Sunday at the invitation. It doesn't have to be a big thing, just something that might cause someone who is seeking to ask questions as to what it is all about.

Becky

Is it wrong to have fun, simply for fun's sake? Serious question. ;o)

It depends on what the fun is. Wholesome fun is a healthy way to occupy time.

Actions are important, no doubt. But our actions should go along with the word of God. Rom. 1017 So then faith cometh by thearing and hearing by the word f God. Our actions will not save a sould. Our words will not save a soul. People need to hear God's Word.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

No, but if it is a church activity do you think it would come as a surpirse that God was spoken of a little:)

Besides you make it sound like that just because God IS spoken of, there will be no fun. That is sad, but typical of peoples view of Christianity today. "When you become a christain all fun stops."

Becky

It depends on what the fun is. Wholesome fun is a healthy way to occupy time.

I agree. I wasn't of course speaking of the "fun" of going clubbing and drinking oneself into a stupor. But something such as, say, riding horses. ;o)

That is not a one word answer...The order of salvation is seen differently because of the way we view the fall in the garden and the result to man

Reform doctrine says man is spiritually dead because of the fall...that means he must be Born again( regenerated )before he can desire to be saved..

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Until then man can not see or desire God .Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Arminians believe that man is not quite dead from the fall and has enough spiritual life to desire God and choose Christ. They would believe he is not born again (regenerated ) UNTIL he is saved

So to me the order is..regeneration (born again), repentance ,conversion (saved)

To Mack and Becky the order would be repentance,conversion (saved), regenerated into a new creature..(born again)

And what is the purpose of spreading the gospel? Serious question. ~ Angelo

The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, period. It is what saves you. The purpose of spreading the gospel is so more people will be saved, because salvation is the only thing in this world worth having. Serious answer:) ~ Becky

Actually, angelo, the Lord Jesus Himself declared that the preaching of the kingdom of God, i.e. the gospel, should be done as a witness to the gentiles.

Matthew 24:14 [The Lord Jesus speaking] And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Let me speak to you that according to the oath the LORD spoke to the patriarch David concerning the fruit of his body, the Christ has been raised up to sit on the throne of David. God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Repent and believe this gospel of the kingdom of God.

An aside to Becky: If the gospel is only "the death burial and resurrection of Christ" then why does Jesus call the gospel the kingdom of God?

Oh, well, I guess that you will just have to remain blind and call this little saint stupid for pointing out the truth. Let me know when you start to grow up and become a little more humble and teachable.

Does this Barna have any numbers on how many Catholics enjoy the schadenfreude when two Sola Scriptura Christians collide? ;-)

Woody, if you find Mack getting "teachable" let me know, and vice versa. :-)

What is this? Mack tries to convert me to IFBB, while Mom tries to convert him to Calvinism? When y'all have decided amongst yourselves what Christianity really teaches, let me know.

How many times have I told you? If you want to know the real deal, just ask me! :-)

Becky when I was a new Christian .I prayed with patients and talked to them alot about Christ..the circumstances allowed for that

But I never "gave the gospel" to my co workers.One day a nurse came to me and said "Terry some of us were talking..what makes you different?" (By this she meant I did not gossip or listen to dirty jokes I did not curse) Nothing special I was just walking Becky

I told that nurse who made me different and why (the gospel) I invited her to a service the next week...she accepted Christ that day.

Becky walking the walk is what makes people hunger for the gospel..what makes you different? How do you have peace in this storm...Jesus calmed the waves:>)

Calvinists knew that 9/11 would make no lasting change in "born again " numbers. God has written in His Book of Life the names of those that will come..and they will come when He decides

Is this supposed to sound as fatalistic as it sounds? This is why Calvinism is just so darn depressing.

Read this quote and weep for the church

He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Jesus was a terrible failure by Barna standards..we are told that as he taught many turned and walked away...and then to top it off they were the ones..the ones healed and taught ..the ones that welcomed him as King on Palm Sunday that yelled "crucify him!"

Quite cynical as well. My Bible has the parable of the talents, and a pastor who fails to "plan" for the future plans to fail.

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