Posted on 10/01/2002 9:33:43 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
No, we canot save ourselves, or keep ourselves saved. If we accept Christ as our Savior, the seed sown begins to grow, despite ourselves, sometimes. I also think of the thief hanging on the cross who accepted Christ---what in the world could he possibly have done to "earn" his salvation after accepting Christ? Nothing.
That is not to say that we should ignore the Father's preferences for our lives (for Christ has fulfilled the laws), Christ's model for our behavior, or the Holy Spirit's leading in our minds and hearts. Paul speaks of how "we should then live."
The one missing out on a fulfilled and blessed life is the one who does not seek the Father's will. This "lack of action" on the part of the believer, however, does not trump Christ's action on the Cross.
Although the saved person may get to heaven, it shall be "as through fire." All his/her works shall be burned away and that person will have little or no reward once in heaven.
My Scriptures say there is only one unforgiveable sin: "do not GRIEVE the Holy Spirit." And if you think that grieving the Holy Spirit is "merely" being disobedient, or not acting properly, or not acting with the will of God, that these things preclude one from salvation and heaven, then I think that you'd have to lump in all of mankind, including the apostles, King David, etc., who have disobeyed, disbelieved, acted wrongly, thought impurely. Because their disobedience, the sins Christ died for, overcame Christ's powers to save.
I believe what Christ did at the cross is stronger than anything I could ever do to "earn" my residence in heaven; is stronger than anything I neglect to do to "keep" my residence in heaven; is stronger than anything I "work" to do to "prove" I should go to heaven. Because none of us "should" go there, no matter how many "good works" we do to "keep" ourselves there. All our works are as filthy rags."
Wai-ming, there is a problem with our current understanding of the word "saved." By saved many in non-Christian circles understand "saved" to mean "acceptable to God." Therefore, when someone says that this group is saved, or that group is saved, or this other group is not saved, folks get their hackles up. They think what is being said is that the person is not "acceptable to God."
That is not the situation at all. Saved does NOT mean "acceptable to God" in the Christian Bible.
"Saved" means exactly what the Coast Guard does in the middle of a hurricane when it goes out to rescue a small boat that is in danger of sinking. They reach the small boat and then they rescue the people off of that boat. Those people have been "saved" from the storm. It really has nothing to do with them being "acceptable to the Coast Guard." The issue is that even if they were drug runners they had just been "saved."
The meaning of "saved" in Christianity is exactly the same.
Therefore, you must understand what a Christian means when he says, "I have been saved." It means "I have been rescued."
Perhaps that's a better way to read the sentences about Jews, Buddhists, and Hindu's. Christianity is a religion about being rescued. That is part of the central focus of the resurrection. We are not a religion about "finding God." We are a religion about a man named Jesus who "rescues" those who call on Him to rescue them.
So then, Jews are not rescued by Jesus. Buddhists are not rescued by Jesus. Hindus are not rescued by Jesus. Muslims are not rescued by Jesus.
Why are they not rescued by Jesus? Because they do not call on him to rescue them. To be honest, they aren't interested in being rescued by Jesus.
Why do they not call on Jesus to rescue them? Because they are content to find their way to God on their own according to their own customs and their own religion.
Christians have GIVEN UP on trying to find their own way to God. They have called on Jesus to rescue them. Why have they given up on trying to find a religious way to find God? Because they realized they weren't getting anywhere on their own. They realized that nothing they were doing was getting them any closer to God. Therefore, they called on Jesus to rescue them.
We don't think those folks practicing religion (even formalized christian religion) to find God are going to succeed. We think they will make it only if they admit they need to be rescued.
But they are perfectly free to continue trying to find God by their religious practices.
They don't want to be "saved." They want to make it on their own.
Interestingly, many Christians would disagree with you on the idea of whether the Jews are "saved" or not. Some have even posted threads stating something to the effect that since the Jews were God's "chosen" people, they are "given a free pass" when it comes to getting in to heaven. The Jews can "accept" Christ later (in the afterlife perhaps?), when it is their "turn." (The first shall be last, and the last shall be first.)
To me, this is grossly unfair. If the Jews, who saw Christ as only a moral teacher while he was among them, and later killed him, are given "special consideration," (i.e. an "exception" is made for them), why not the Buddhists and the Hindus?
If, on the other hand, the Jews go straight to hell for their "unbelief," what of those millions of innocent victims who died in the holocaust? Will Christ have mercy on them? And will Christ's mercy likewise extend to non-Christian, non-Jews?
I don't believe I have the appropriate qualifications.
What do you find in G-d's Word specifying the qualifications for preaching His Word ?
I believe you need to prepare yourself to do the Will of the L-rd !
This begs the question: Do not "following the commandments" and "preaching His word" constitute "works"? If salvation is dependent on faith, and not works, then doesn't that nullify the effect (as far as my salvation is concerned) of doing either or both?
Do you Love the Christ, Jesus ?
`Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
If you do, should you not be doing His Will ?
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians, for they received the message with great
eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if
what Paul said was true.
chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>
The only reason they call on Jesus to rescue them is because they had come to believe He really is God. In that case, when they called, they be rescued. (I assume you be referring to the Jews here.)
I've heard it said that the Jews will recognize Him as the one they crucified and will finally "confess" that Jesus is the Christ. (Note the Future Tense here.) That means that at some point in the future, the Jews will come to accept Jesus. Better late than never. But again, will it be all the Jews who have ever lived, from Abraham on down? Or will it only be those select few who happen to be alive at the time? Were not all of them God's "chosen" people?
And the question is begged: If "post-mortem" recognition of Jesus is okay for the Jews, why not for the Buddhists and Hindus? Will they not also recognize Him as their "rescuer" when their time comes? "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:11)
Amen! John 14:6 I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me
This the passage that sets Christianity apart from every other faith, we say that faith in Christ is the only way to salvation, not a way. (Acts.4:12)
[So then, Jews are not rescued by Jesus. Buddhists are not rescued by Jesus. Hindus are not rescued by Jesus. Muslims are not rescued by Jesus.]
Amen! John 14:6 I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.
This the passage that sets Christianity apart from every other faith, we say that faith in Christ is the only way to salvation, not a way. (Acts.4:12)
This the passage that sets Christianity apart from every other faith, we say that faith in Christ is the only way to salvation, not a way. (Acts.4:12)
Well put. It is not "ecumenical" but true, demonstrated by the resurrection of our Glorious Lord.
and per your #33
Thus, the Calvinist produce fruits to show they are saved, the Arminian produces fruit to stay saved, the believer in eternal security produces fruit because he is saved.
My understanding of the Calvinist position is that it claims that the believer produces fruit because God willed these, as described in Eph 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
So I submit that the Calvinist believes "the believer in eternal security produces fruit because he is saved."
Absolutely. It is faith in Christ, not faith in "Christianity" (Catholicism, Methodism, Calvinism, etc.) that saves.
Yet how often do we hear Christians touting their own "brand" of Christianity as the only means to salvation? The mantra is "Believe in Christ, but you must believe in Him the way that I do, in order to be saved."
If I choose to believe in Christ, but do not wish to "join your church," or adhere to your version of Christianity, is there anything wrong with that?
Christians do not have a "monopoly" on Jesus. He is the Savior of all mankind. Remember that old Christian song "Jesus loves the little children, all the little children of the world, red and yellow, black and white..."
He invites all to come to Him--everyone. I cannot picture Him saying "Sorry, you were Buddhist, you go to hell." When the Buddhist eventually finds his way to Christ, I picture Jesus saying with outstretched arms, "Welcome my son/daughter, I've been waiting for you."
You have to believe in the death,(for our sins) burial(for our sins) and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, (1Cor.15:3-5)
Anything else is a 'another gospel' (Gal.1:6) and a false one.
That is what faith in Christ means, believing that He died for your sins on the Cross and He is the only way to salvation (Acts.4:12, Jn.14:6)
If he perseveres.
He cannot be sure the 'good works' that he is doing is not from the flesh until he dies and is thus, unable to 'fall away'.
Calvinists have a hard time dealing with the sin in their lives. Since it is not God's will that they sin, they can come to doubt that they are really one of the 'elect'.
Ah, FTD, that is our point of issue. I take Jesus at His word in John 10:25-29
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."
Please correct any exegetical errors here... Previously Christ had said that His sheep hear His voice and follow. I would accept this as a definition of a believer. Do you agree so far? In the quote above, he points out that those who reject Him are not sheep. Then Christ takes ownership of preservation of those who are sheep. I suggest that the context above justifies concluding the term "no one" means none, without distinction, that is, no created being. Have I made any textual or contextual errors here? From this, I conclude all sheep persevere. Do you agree? If not, please show me how the text can be interpreted lexically and contextually any other way...
By the way, I have stated previously that I believe that the idea of confession of Jesus as Lord in Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
implies more than a simple profession of belief in Christ. I believe that the term "as Lord" implies an intimate, submissive relationship of the creature to his Creator. I believe that this view is entirely consistent with the teaching in John 6, 8, and 10. In short, I think Paul is describing the relationship of a sheep to the Shepherd (or a vine to the Branch...)
I would not disagree with you at all that Christ keeps His sheep.
The problem many Calvinists have is being sure that they are Christ's sheep.
Many Calvnists are shocked when a sin enters their life which they cannot seem to control and then they come to doubt that they were ever truly saved and may not be the 'elect'.
The OSOS view is based on union with Christ and does not depend on waiting to the end of one's life (Perservence) to be sure that one is the 'elect'.
A Calvinist may say that he is saved and truly believe it but can he ever be sure until the end of his life that he is one of the elect?
Eternal Security based on Union with Christ and Perservence of the Saints are very different approaches that arrive at the same conclusion.
By the way, I have stated previously that I believe that the idea of confession of Jesus as Lord in Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; implies more than a simple profession of belief in Christ. I believe that the term "as Lord" implies an intimate, submissive relationship of the creature to his Creator. I believe that this view is entirely consistent with the teaching in John 6, 8, and 10. In short, I think Paul is describing the relationship of a sheep to the Shepherd (or a vine to the Branch...)
I have no problem with your definition.
If one is a consistent Calvinist (and thankfully, many are not), one would have to say that while he believes he is saved, he will not really know until the end of his life when he has 'perservered'.
Am I misstating that doctrine?
Correct..so many that come to the altar come to "fix" something in their lives..not to make Him Lord ..
Don't worry about us worry about all the goats in your church that think they have been turned ito sheep
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
That is also a real problem, but the question we were discussing is the Calvinist view of Perservence and how it is not really eternal security, since you cannot be sure you are the 'elect' until you die!
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
So, why do you have to wait to see if you 'Perservere' to know if you are the elect?
Or do you?
Maybe some Calvinists have more confidence in their election then others?
Do not worry about us dec ..worry about the goats in your church ..
And why do you want to avoid the topic!
The discussion we were having was on eternal security and the difference between it and the Calvinist view.
Is that something that you are afraid of dealing with?
Are you afraid of dealing with Calvinistic Sanctification?
Calvinists have no concept of 'free will', it is they who advocate the notion that everything that man does is because God wants it to happen that way.
They reject the idea of a permissive will (most Calvinists do) thus, every act, including your own sins are the result of a Holy God wanting them, even though in Scripture He says the opposite.
But who needs scripture when you have the secret will you can appeal to!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.