Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God expects ALL to obey Him, the saved and the damned.

The question is does God desire that all men be saved, and if so, why aren't they?

1. Because man (and woman) can thwart God's desire by asserting their own will over God's will. (They must eat Wheaties.)

...or...

2. God doesn't desire that all men be saved, a hard but inescapable truth.

God created us; He numbers every hair on our head. It is God who decides, through the unmerited gift of grace, who will sit with Him in heaven and who will not.

And those names were known to God before creation.

Hmmm. I pick door #2.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Happy New Year's Bump. 8~)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

the Lord's saving grace as the strongest, most powerful, sublime force ever experienced. ~~ How I wish someone would post a thread about just this very thing. And thank you for a powerful post of your own! 319 posted on 01/02/2003 0:24 AM PST by MarMema

Respectfully, MarMema, I submit that the Eastern Orthodox... for all their admirable humility... have a Spiritual Arrogance all their own.

• I'll readily admit that the Eastern Liturgy of worship is a thing of sublime beauty.
• And, as it happens, the very same saint who led me (in my rebellious, Arminian youth) to the Biblical Doctrine of Election, a Saint whom I shall call "Haldor" given that is his real name and none of you know him anyway, did later reject Protestantism and make his own way to Eastern Orthodoxy (partly as a regrettable result of a disgusting intra-church fight of falsehoods and prejudices which was 100% my Church's fault, and none of Hal's, in my opinion)
• And, having basked (more than once) in the riches of an Eastern Orthodox worship service, I have some empathy with that great Convert, Vladimir of Russia -- who declared upon his participation in the Communion of Hagia Sophia, that he could not tell whether he was transported to Heaven, or still on Earth.

And so I understand when Martin Luther, responding to the Papal Claims of the Bishop of Rome, reminded the self-proclaimed "Pontifex Maximus" that the Eastern Church was one-half of the Bride of Christ; and that in Luther's own opinion, the Eastern Orthodox were the "better half" (from whence we derive the marital expression, I recently learned).

But it's not enough.

I had the opportunity to sit, at length, with my old friend Haldor some years after his conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy, and discuss these matters with him.

God bless him, he still has Faith, Faith in abundance. I hope that he will persevere unto the End; and, as a Calvinist, I have a hopeful expectation that he will.

He just doesn't have any answers, anymore.

To use my Calvinist friend "Precisian"s screen name as a segue, I have to confess that I feel as though the Eastern Orthodox have settled comfortably into accreted Theological Errors, and given up their quest for Theological precision... which is to say, they have given up the quest for theological Truth.

It's not enough to stand righteously against Error (the absolutist claims of Rome).
You also have to stand for Truth.

I'm not even talking about side-issues such as Iconoclasm, mind you. I really don't have any harsh objection to the Easterner's practice of "theology in pictures", provided that I am not expected to offer prayers unto the mediation of stained-glass artworks. I am thinking of something a bit more fundamental.

Had the whole of the East accepted Patriarch Kyrillos Loukaris' 17th century Confession of essentially-Protestant beliefs, we might all be "Eastern Orthodox" today.

But the East did not, did they? Such a "Protestant" Confession of Grace and Salvation would not have been commensurate with the "Traditions of the East", now, would it?

And for all the Easterners vaunted "humility", to consider the possibility that the Theology of the Reformers might be true... well, that was rather a bit too much for the "humble" Greeks to consider, now, wasn't it?

Not being sarcastic, just an observation.

Best, OP

[Jael]

Here is what you need to think about. Jesus said he would draw all men to Himself.

He did that.

God says that all men will not obey the Gospel.

They obviously do not.

God has made provision for every man to be saved.

Man has rejected Jesus Christ. Some are under the will of Satan. God says they are taken captive at Satan's will.

Now, somewhere, somehow, you have to deny what God wrote or what Jesus himself said, to deny that Jesus did not die so mankind COULD BE saved.

Now, I am tired of posting Scripture that you people explain away by claiming that God didn't mean all.

I am tired of your claim that only "some" are chosen or elect and your supposition that Christ only died for a few. The election is due to foreknowledge, not some kind of Jesus lottery or some kind of "You win, Jesus likes us better" idea.

For every heresy you claim is true, you ignore God's Word to do so.

John 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:44  ¶Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

John 12:46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 14:12  ¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Acts 10:43  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16  ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 10:43  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16  ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Now, what is the point of you continuing to insist that I follow a man made doctrine when I believe in Salvation by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ when you follow a man who insisted that unsaved babies be baptized? Your church still does that and claims that water can engraft an unbelieving baby into Jesus Christ.

You are the daughter of Rome. Her work will you do. Examine yourself and see whether ye be in the faith.

[Jael]

Theology of the Reformers

You can't reform something that was never right in the first place.

[Jael]

And then you insist there are mortals who can willingly ignore and even reject that force.

God now forces people to accept his Son, Jesus Christ?

What a waste of perfectly good blood. God could of just saved you, created a little robot that didn't believe in Jesus, Jesus would never of had to die, because God is going to force you to be saved.

[Jael]

You have never answered this post, upon which much of your argument lies, that man can't understand Jesus enough to get saved.

"Do you even know what "the things of the Spirit are"?

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Of course an unsaved person is not going to know the things God has prepared for us. That in no way means that an unsaved person will not be drawn by Jesus Christ, repent and believe. Posted by Jael to OrthodoxPresbyterian On Religion 01/01/2003 10:34 AM PST #216 of 318"


2 Timothy 3:14  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;


15  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[Jael]

The question is does God desire that all men be saved, and if so, why aren't they?

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[xzins]

And then you insist there are mortals who can willingly ignore and even reject that force.

I don't insist on anything. God definitely knocked Paul to the ground to get his attention. The Lord Jesus CHOSE Paul. Jesus says so himself: "he is a chosen instrument for me."

There are definitely those who are chosen by Jesus. I'm one of them. That's not hubris. I was there.

[biblewonk]

There certainly has been a lot of doctrine made up regarding this whole question.

[the_doc]

Good post.

[ReformedBeckite]

That is great news, that people would actually leave an apostate church. It's seems very rare today.

yeah the parking lot of liberal churches are bad places to get caught in. The Bible believers will run you over as the race to leave the Church, and the ignorant liberals and reprobates will run you over coming in. But I believe would guess most of the traffic is leaving. Just look at the numbers of the denominations that went liberal, you see a decline. And then look at the numbers of the fastest growing denominations and you could probably find that most of them are just crossing over from the liberal churches. there sid

[ReformedBeckite]

Do you hate children or something?

No I don't hate them. I'm just being consistant with the message that salvation is by undeserved Grace from Jesus Christ, not a I deserve/expect grace because you put your faith in Jesus Christ.

[RnMomof7]

Here is the problem Jeal the scripture says he died as a propitiation for our sins...but that means that God is charging the same sin punishment twice..Jesus paid it all ..and then God makes some men burn for the same sin that Jesus died for..so God is double dipping

The theology you hold says that in fact Jesus did not die for anyone , no ones sins were remitted on the cross..

Does God damn for already forgiven sin? If not then Jesus saved no one on the cross..man saves himself...

[RnMomof7]

Happy New Year doc:>)

[RnMomof7]

What a waste of perfectly good blood. God could of just saved you, created a little robot that didn't believe in Jesus, Jesus would never of had to die, because God is going to force you to be saved.

Was St. Paul a robot Jael? He was not looking for Christ.

[RnMomof7]

There are definitely those who are chosen by Jesus. I'm one of them. That's not hubris. I was there.

So God loves some more than others? He loves some enough to assure their salvation and then lets others stay lost..my goodness that sounds like double predestination...

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You have never answered this post,

Yes, ma'am, I did answer your Post (see again my #285)...

upon which much of your argument lies, that man can't understand Jesus enough to get saved. "Do you even know what "the things of the Spirit are"? (1 Corinthians 2:8-10)

Ma'am, as I already pointed out in my Post #285, you're not going to be able to change the nature of Fallen Man's problem simply by observing that "the things of the Spirit" (1 Cor 2:14) are the things that God has prepared for us" (1 Cor 2:8-10) as Christians, and therefore are not relevant to the initial question of Salvation.

After all, as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 2:12, Christians are able to understand "the things of the Spirit" precisely because "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

But the Fallen and unregenerate Man does not receive the Spirit.

***John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

And the Fallen and unregenerate Man will NEVER choose the God-pleasing choice.

***Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And as long as Scripture expressly states that the Fallen and unregenerated Man will NEVER make the God-pleasing Choice, then Scripture DENIES you the right to invent a man-made theology which pretends that he will!!

If Scripture says, "you can't have that chew-toy", then guess what?
You can't have that chew-toy.

It does your man-made theology no good whatsoever to claim that a Fallen Man can "understand Jesus enough to get saved". You haven't changed the equation one bit; regardless of his degree of "understanding", the Fallen and unregenerate Man still hates God.

As long as Scripture expressly states that the Fallen and unregenerated Man will NEVER choose the God-pleasing choice (Romans 7:18, Romans 8:5-8) and that therefore you may not construct a man-made theology which pretends that he will, it does you no good to jump up and down and stamp your feet squealing, "but I want to!!"

• Scripture expressly states that the Fallen and unregenerated Man will NEVER choose the God-pleasing choice (Romans 7:18, Romans 8:5-8).
• Therefore you MAY NOT construct for yourself a man-made theology which pretends that he will.

You need to divorce yourself from your humanistic, man-made theology, and start believing the Bible.

[xzins]

The best I can answer, Rn, is that all of the Bible is God's Word. I'm committed to Christ and to his Word. Like the hymn says, "Where he leads me I will follow."

[Jael]

If it's not relevant to salvation do not include it in your arguments that man can't understand the things of the Spirit. Admit you were wrong to include it in your list of Scriptures, because it didn't apply.

I don't follow a man made doctrine like you. No man taught me what I believe, except the Holy Spirit, by the Word of God.

We are back to this, your church is nothing more than a daughter of Rome who still follows in it's mother's footsteps, baptizing unsaved unbelieving babies and saying they are now in Christ.

YOU are not anyone I would ever trust in regards to any doctrinal discussion. You don't hold the truth, you don't have it and you are not in a church that practices it.