Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[Jael]

Ephesians 1:12-13  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

your doctrinal brothers the Arminians.. ~~ Not my brothers. I follow no man made doctrines. 254 posted on 01/01/2003 6:29 PM PST by Jael

Respectfully, ma'am....

You follow the Man-made Arminian dogma that a Fallen and unregenerated Man will make the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus.

Refusing to admit that your doctrine is man-made, doesn't change the fact that it is. Your belief that a Fallen and unregenerated Man will make the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus directly contradicts the express teaching of Scripture.

---

Let's start at the very point which your beliefs begin to diverge from the teachings of the Bible... the Fall of Man, in Genesis.

Genesis 2: 16-17, 3:4 --And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.... And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now, what does the Bible teach us about the Fall of Man?

***Genesis 2:16-17 -- And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
***Genesis 8:21b -- Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
***Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
***Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
***Isaiah 64: 6 -- For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
***Romans 3: 10-12, 23 -- As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
***Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
***John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
***1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Alright, then... let us, with Saint Augustine, re-capitulate the Biblical Doctrine of Original Sin.

The Fallen and unregenerate Natural Man is spiritually dead to God (Gen 2) and every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8) and he is estranged from God from the womb (Ps 58) and he is spiritually insane (Ecc 9) and his "righteous" deeds are offensive to God (Is 64) and he does not seek God (Rom 3) and he never Wills that which is Good (Rom 7) and he hates God (Rom 8) and he never Wills the God-pleasing choice (Rom 8) and he cannot accept the Spirit (John 14) and he cannot even understand the things of the Spirit (I Cor 2).

The Question is NOT "whether or not God gives man a Choice".
The Question is, "What Choice will an unregenerate Man make?"

It is your position that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will, of the motivations of his own unregenerated heart, choose the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus.

Since the Bible strictly dis-allows any man-made theology which proposes that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing choice (which is impossible, according to Romans 8), your theology directly contradicts Scripture (Romans 8:5-8, and all the other passages listed above).

---

Post #228 -- unanswered.

[Jael]

"There was no chance that you would not believe in Him since he knew that you would believe in him."

His foreknowledge forces people to believe? Strange. Never heard that.

2 Thessalonians 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

I still have post outstanding from OP. He needs to address those before I go any where with him. Besides, he doesn't use a bible that I recognize as the word of God.

He c and p's too many things rather than saying what he believes.

[Jael]

Nope, I follow the Bible. No men, no man made doctrines.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Jael]

Post #228 -- unanswered.

I have so many post from you unanswered I wouldn't even have time to go back and count them.

[RnMomof7]

I have posted what I think speaks to the issue. David saying he would go to his son in Heaven. Paul saying that without the knowledge of the law, sin is not imputed. None of you have answered that. Further, I have not claimed that unbelieving children (who can understand) are saved.

You have posted nothing BUT what you ~think~ and that proves nothing ..the child of David was elect ...so that means nothing. It is not a general statment of promise to infants..

I have never posted anything about some age of accountability. For one, I would have no way of knowing when a child could be at that stage. I think that God deals with people as individuals, not as some across the board "ok, age 7, you are going to Hell if you die now and I didn't choose you." I don't cling to ANY Roman traditions, including the dead work of infant baptism. You however do.

here is the problem Jael..If you say ALL infants are saved you have to have a cut off..when does a child STOP being a saved infant and become responsible? 2 or 4 or 6

On one day are they saved and the next damed if they die?

Jael you ignore scripture I do not . Calling me a Romanist may make you feel better but it does not answer my question to you

Was the cross a crap shoot (by the way you man choosing Christ is a Romnaist position..but I will not call you a Romanist:>)

[Jael]

That is great news, that people would actually leave an apostate church. It's seems very rare today.

[Jael]

I am not calling you a Romanist, I am saying , hmm, hey wait, you called me one first!

But I am saying that in all seriousness, you can't apply the traditions of Rome to me, which I don't follow, and not see the tradition of Rome that you do follow, the dead work of infant Baptism.

[RnMomof7]

See you assume that all men can hear and believe ..and that makes man god and not God

I believe that men must be Born again BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God..you believe that men are all born with 20-20 spiritual vision ...that is not scripture

An unregenerate man can not "trust " Christ..He hates him..he would bite off his tongue before calling His name..

It is not untill we are born again that we can see the Kingdom of God..desire it ..Repent or believe..all of that is the grace of God working on the elect..

Jael we all MUST repent and believe..but the non elect do not want to do it..

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I have so many post from you unanswered I wouldn't even have time to go back and count them. 265 posted on 01/01/2003 7:09 PM PST by Jael

Post #228 alone, will do. I've even re-formatted it citing the KJV exclusively, just for you.

(See below)

I still have post outstanding from OP. He needs to address those before I go any where with him.

Where?

Besides, he doesn't use a bible that I recognize as the word of God.

Alright, fine... we'll revisit my Post, using the King James AV (actually, some of my citations are KJV already, this is a composite of several Posts of mine).

Post #228, again, this time exclusively citing the King James AV:

---

Let's start at the very point which your beliefs begin to diverge from the teachings of the Bible... the Fall of Man, in Genesis.

Genesis 2: 16-17, 3:4 --And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.... And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now, what does the Bible teach us about the Fall of Man?

***Genesis 2:16-17 -- And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (KJV)
***Genesis 8:21 -- And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. (KJV)
***Psalms 58:3 -- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (KJV)
***Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (KJV)
***Isaiah 64: 6 -- But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (KJV)
***Romans 3: 10-12, 23 -- As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one... For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (KJV)
***Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (KJV)
***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (KJV)
***John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (KJV)
***1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)

Alright, then... let us, with Saint Augustine, re-capitulate the Biblical Doctrine of Original Sin.

The Fallen and unregenerate Natural Man is spiritually dead to God (Gen 2) and every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8) and he is estranged from God from the womb (Ps 58) and he is spiritually insane (Ecc 9) and his "righteous" deeds are offensive to God (Is 64) and he does not seek God (Rom 3) and he never Wills that which is Good (Rom 7) and he hates God (Rom 8) and he never Wills the God-pleasing choice (Rom 8) and he cannot accept the Spirit (John 14) and he cannot even understand the things of the Spirit (I Cor 2).

The Question is NOT "whether or not God gives man a Choice".
The Question is, "What Choice will an unregenerate Man make?"

It is your position that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will, of the motivations of his own unregenerated heart, choose the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus.

Since the Bible strictly dis-allows any man-made theology which proposes that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing choice (which is impossible, according to Romans 8), your theology directly contradicts Scripture (Romans 8:5-8, and all the other passages listed above).

---

He c and p's too many things rather than saying what he believes.

Considering that I am "cutting and pasting" entirely my own articles and postings on this website, I can assure you that they do reflect "what I believe". Promise.

Now, about Post #228....

[RnMomof7]

It is your position that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will, of the motivations of his own unregenerated heart, choose the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus.

  Rev 16:8   And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

     Rev 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

     Rev 16:10   And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

     Rev 16:11   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Reprobate man HATES God..that is the choice he makes

[RnMomof7]

We agree that infant baptism is a dead work...one of the doctrianl differences between Catholics and non Catholics..THEY believe in Baptismal  regeneration.......I believe that regeneration is a gift of God through the Holy Spirit..

[Jael]

See you assume that all men can hear and believe ..and that makes man god and not God

No, the premise of your assumption is false.
I believe that God will do as he says, he will draw all men to him. I believe also that some will disobey the gospel, just as Scripture says.

I believe that men must be Born again BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God..

Of course he must be. And thou, being a master of Calvinism knowest not these things? WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

you believe that men are all born with 20-20 spiritual vision ...that is not scripture

Oh no, I don't.

2 Timothy 3:14  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Romans 10:12  ¶For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

[Conservative til I die]

And he apparently can't figure out simple words such as "interpret" (not "interrupt") and "cruel" (not "crue"). Yet he bandies about impressive phrases and bible quotes.

[Conservative til I die]

Do you hate children or something?

[RnMomof7]

But the problem is that believing that God gives all men the grace need to hear and come is not scriptual

The question is why does one hear and repent and not another? What is the diference..I say the word tells us it is not given to all men to hear and repent..

Repetance is a gift of God, faith is a gift of God..

Lots of folks hear the gospel preached and are not converted..so it is not only the preaching of the gospel

Jael if it is Gods will that ALL men everywhere come to him..why has he made that impossible?

Was the cross a grap shoot?

[Jael]

Jael we all MUST repent and believe..but the non elect do not want to do it..

Actually, according to Paul and Isiah, no one wants to do it. No not one.

Isaiah 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:[heis= 1. ONE]

11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[RnMomof7]

Bingo..NONE of us want to repent in the natural fallen state..it is not until God re engineers ouir heart that we desire him..a VERY calvinist thought BTW...God acts , send His grace..we are given a new heart..we are ineffect Born again..only THIS Time we desire God..The goodness of God leads us to repentance..we confess and believe..now God does all of this through His word..

[Conservative til I die]

I'm with you on this. Some people here have this disturbing enthusiasm for deciding who gets shut out of Heaven. I know there's a verse that relates to it, but hey, I'm Catholic, so you know I don't have that one memorized. :)

[Conservative til I die]

It's kind of funny watching two blind people trying to argue about who is more blind.