Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Why do you think you need a creed written by a man? 239 posted on 01/01/2003 3:09 PM PST by Jael

"Need"? I don't "need" the Creeds. I utilize the Creeds.

Same reason I would utilize a concordance if I wanted to quickly find a particular verse in the Bible. A good Reformed Creed is nothing more than a chain-reference of topical Scripture on a given subject.

For example, see my own chain-reference of Scriptures concerning The Fall in Post #228 -- which you need to address.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

All doesn't mean all to you. Then you have to deny what Christ himself said to support your doctrine. The ELECT is due to what? FOREKNOWLEDGE. :-) 240 posted on 01/01/2003 3:13 PM PST by Jael

True. Election unto everlasting Life or Reprobation unto everlasting Death is based upon God's Foreknowledge.

• The trouble is, you are presuming that it is based on God's pre-creative foreknowledge of Man's temporal actions towards Him.
• You're not even considering the possibility that the Foreknowledge spoken of in Romans 8 is God's pre-creative foreknowledge of His own temporal actions towards Men.

To put it bluntly, this possibility hadn't even occurred to you. And yet, if you have ever read Matthew 11, it certainly should have.

---

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Alright, then:

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such salvific Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such salvific Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform the salvific Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

---

God's Foreknowledge in Romans 8 speaks of his pre-creative foreknowledge of His Own temporal actions towards Men. If God was dependent upon Fallen and unregenerate Men choosing to Repent and follow Jesus in order to secure His Election, then none would ever be Elected -- for none would ever choose to repent and follow Jesus.

After all, as Romans 8 also points out, the Fallen and unregenerate Man hates God and NEVER selects the God-pleasing choice (Romans 8:5-8). Your man-made theology directly contradicts this Scripture.

[RnMomof7]

Jael the bible CLEARLY teaches predestination and election..Jesus taught it, Paul taught it, Peter taught it ..If you go by the bible you have to know that salvation is 100% God

[RnMomof7]

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Mat 11:25   At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Jhn 15:16   Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

We love Hom because He loved us first Jael..the cross was not a crap shoot..

[xzins]

Jael, in these discussions you are about to have, it is best to focus on OP. The others are not as clear or as direct. OP will tell you honestly that God has predetermined every choice you ever have made and ever will make and every event that will ever befall you...not just you, but all of humanity of all of time. You cannot scratch your head without it having been preplanned by God.

Start there. It's a very honest statement on his part.

I will tell you that God is love and that nothing he has ever done has been less than pure love. Everything that has ever happened to anyone has been premised in that love.

God knows everything to include those things which have yet to happen. Before He created, your choice to believe in him was one of the events that creation set in motion. There was no chance that you would not believe in Him since he knew that you would believe in him. There is no chance that anything you have ever done was not foreseen and, therefore, no chance that any of it would not have happened once time was set in motion.

All of the above is true and is too wonderful to figure out with creeds and finite human reasoning. God's foolishness is far wiser than the highest wisdom man has ever achieved.

[Precisian]

You sound like a Calvinian.

Welcome aboard!

[Precisian]

I've noticed over the years that before you answer a question like this, it is wise to turn back the question to the questioner.

Do you, PFKEY, believe babies go to heaven? Why/why not?

And more deeply: Do you believe in heaven, at all? If so, please describe.

Otherwise it is foolishness to jump through your hoops.

[RnMomof7]

Hey xzins Jael and I are friends..you telling her not to talk to me?......OP is a solid doctrinal Calvinist ..but not the only one on the forum (and you know that ) You also know he does not always have time to post. This would not be passive agressive behavior would it?

Doc or Woody or Jerry or any number of Calvinist have cleaned your arminian clock........so smile and do not be so dishonest as to pretend you have her spiritual best interest at heart

[Precisian]

All born damned; some redeemed.

[the_doc]

All born damned; some redeemed.

That's the way I would describe the mess of Adam's race in its entirety--Christ Himself excepted, of course.

(But that's about all I would say.)

[RnMomof7]

All born damned; some redeemed.

Praise God for His justice and Mercy Precisian..that ANY be saved

[ReformedBeckite]

I don't take people like you seriously. You are so misguided you stay in an apostate church which ordains women and sodomites?

You got us Presbyterians (PCA and OPC), mixed up with the way larger denomatination PCUSA<--might be wrong about the letters. The larger one does ordain women and sodomites. The PCA and probably the OPC too broke off of them a long time ago.

you don't go to an assembly, where only the man share scripture and requests for songs during the main meeting and only the men teach.

[Jael]

you don't go to an assembly, where only the man share scripture and requests for songs during the main meeting and only the men teach.

Actually, I did not get them confused, but jumped to the conclusion that they were one in the same. :-) (OPC, PCUSA, etc)

I wouldn't go to a church that allowed a woman to be in any position of leadership or authority.

[Jael]

your doctrinal brothers the Arminians..

Not my brothers. I follow no man made doctrines.

[RnMomof7]

LOL Jael..you follow their teaching down the line..saying you do not read them does not mean your preacher is not teaching them..

[ReformedBeckite]

I wouldn't go to a church that allowed a woman to be in any position of leadership or authority.

Neither would we

[Jael]

Jael you have NO SCRIPTURE to support absolution of infants or children...

I have posted what I think speaks to the issue. David saying he would go to his son in Heaven. Paul saying that without the knowledge of the law, sin is not imputed. None of you have answered that. Further, I have not claimed that unbelieving children (who can understand) are saved.

You however WOULD. you would also claim that UNBELIEVING BABIES are saved through the monstrosity of infant Baptism. Now, let's examine WHO is saying that babies are absolved??? You think sprinkling them does it. That is a dead work. That is far more dangerous than me thinking that God would have mercy on a newborn who dies. My claim has never been that anyone is born without sin. So the noise you all are making about the fall is falling on deaf ears.

You have NO scripture to give an age of accountability...NONE..That is a Roman tradition you cling to while you acuss us of being Romans..

I have never posted anything about some age of accountability. For one, I would have no way of knowing when a child could be at that stage. I think that God deals with people as individuals, not as some across the board "ok, age 7, you are going to Hell if you die now and I didn't choose you."
I don't cling to ANY Roman traditions, including the dead work of infant baptism. You however do.

Jael you say you have NO doctrine only scripture..so show us the CLEAR scripture that all infants and children are saved

I never said all infants and children are saved. My Bible study leads me to believe that where there is no nowledge of Law, or right and wrong, sin is not imputed. See the various verses I have already posted re that.

As OP pointed out the Holy Spirit can quicken an infant ion the womb if He chooses..and we do have scripture for that

Scripture for what? More Scripture that you will ignore like Jesus saying HE WILL draw ALL men to him? And more that you will ignore like God saying that he will take vengeance upon those who disobey the Gospel? More you will ignore like God saying that the election is DUE TO FOREKNOWLEDGE???

More, like in Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men?

While you people still follow in the footsteps of Rome, baptizing babies, and not following the Lord in Believers baptism, the Body of Christ continues unvanquished.

[Jael]

I believe what the Bible SAYS, not how Calvinists wrest it.
WE (that's the ALREADY SAVED Christians Paul is addressing) are predestinated UNTO the adoption (that's where we get our new bodies).
Predestination is not for salvation, it is for people who are ALREADY SAVED - EVERY TIME it appears in the Bible.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[ReformedBeckite]

Theres a big difference between the OPC and the PCUSA. So much the OPC calls the PCUSA apostate. Also there's quiet a bit of difference between the PCA and PCUSA to. When people hear the word Presbyterians, most of them think of the liberal PCUSA, which is probably 10 times the size of all the other Presbyterians thrown together. Thank God people are leaving that denomination in droves, just as they do in most churches that become liberal.

[RnMomof7]

So God did not predestine you till you did a work? That is how Chicago works..but in most places you have to be elected first:>)