Posted on 03/27/2003 8:28:01 AM PST by ksen
Proxy Baptism
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor. 15:29.)
In his epistle to the Corinthians, Paul cited the early Christian practice of proxy baptism for the dead as evidence of a future resurrection and judgment. Most non-Latter-day Saint scholars have failed to note the importance of this passage. Some pass it off as an outmoded practice of the early church, while others believe it refers to an apostate or heretical doctrine.
But historical records are clear on the matter. Baptism for the dead was performed by the dominant church until forbidden by the sixth canon of the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397. Some of the smaller sects, however, continued the practice. Of the Marcionites of the fourth century, Epiphanius wrote:
“In this country—I mean Asia—and even in Galatia, their school flourished eminently and a traditional fact concerning them has reached us, that when any of them had died without baptism, they used to baptize others in their name, lest in the resurrection they should suffer punishment as unbaptized.” (Heresies, 8:7.)
In early Judaism, too, there is an example of ordinances being performed in behalf of the dead. Following the battle of Marisa in 163 B.C., it was discovered that each of the Jewish soldiers killed in the fight had been guilty of concealing pagan idols beneath his clothing. In order to atone for their wrong, Judas Maccabaeus, the Jewish high priest and commander, collected money from the survivors to purchase sacrificial animals for their dead comrades:
“And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachmas of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.” (2 Maccabees 12:43-46.)
In our day, some Christian churches offer prayers and light candles on behalf of the dead, a Jewish custom also. The Coptic Church of Egypt continues to practice baptism by proxy for deceased members of Coptic families. The same is true of the Neo-Apostolic Church in Europe.
As would be expected of the Lord’s church and true doctrine, only The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints engages in genealogical work to provide proxy baptisms for all the kindred dead of its members, for those who accept the gospel in the spirit world must have this ordinance performed for them before they can progress eternally.
John A. Tvedtnes,
Jerusalem Branch, Switzerland-Zurich Mission
Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis•, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess• your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become asubjected• to the spirit of the devil, and he doth bseal• you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
Write me in Purgatory, won't you guys?
If any non-Mormons dare to discuss this I just ask that you keep your comments civil and relevant.
SD
On the surface, no. I get the same sense that you do.
But I am unclear if the baptism is supposed to have regenerative effects of some sort, or what. Also, it could be one of those things where we are dealing with temporal matters and God is not bound by them.
That is, that someone, seemingly unbaptised, who dies, dies in the state he is in. It's just that "the state he is in" is the state of a baptised person, because God knows that the person will later be baptised by his descendents.
SD
That is, that someone, seemingly unbaptised, who dies, dies in the state he is in. It's just that "the state he is in" is the state of a baptised person, because God knows that the person will later be baptised by his descendents.
It might be helpful if we begin by re-imagining the location of the deceased as being similarly bound in some parallel time-and-space continuum, subject to age/growth/development/etc., rather than being a static "timeless" state where all judgements have already been rendered and things made (entirely)new all at once.
I suspect that baptism-for-the-dead here is more symbolic than regenerative, but being baptised in this system somehow counts for "brownie points" re obedience, justification, etc in the afterlife. The unbaptised dead guy is more-or-less stuck in a dead-end job (bad pun, I know) in this afterlife, but having his spiritual resume suddenly updated with a baptism credit (via the works of his still-alive progeny), enables him to quit his job at the spiritual equivalent of McDonalds and get a better-paying job in the afterlife.
In a manner of speaking, of course.
as for baptism of the dead - Ive always wonder then what would be the motivation to live a clean life if you can accept a baptism after the fact.
Im particulary concerned to its effect upon the nature of Christ in that until the baptism is accepted after death, it in effect delays (or circumvents if it is accepted) the fact that Christ will be your arbiter before God.
Know what I mean Vern?
Interesting.
SD
The wicked aren't going to accept baptism.
Could you explain your statement a bit more?
Well, maybe first of all you could tell me what the importance of baptism is for the Mormon.
In my tradition, Independent Baptist, baptism is merely a symbol of the Salvation that has already been affected at the time the Believer accepted Christ as his Saviour. Baptism in and of itself has no salvific effects.
It's an entirely different (and foreign to the Protestant mind) "nature" system than what we're used to. Nothing would please me more, than to engage in an exploratory discussion of what I call the "cosmology" of one particular organization - namely, the nature (and history) of Creation on a Universal scale, the make-up, origins and destinations of the cast of characters that occupy the Heaven(s) and Earth(s) of that particular belief system, and the ultimate nature of the personal relationship between Creator and Creation within that system.
Discussions about the planet [5th Amendment], chronological histories of real people having progressed through "what X was, Y may become", that sort of thing.
Having had the blessing of first-hand access to fifteen+ years of M[5th Amendment] Priesthood study guides, it still confounds me that I've never found an officially sanctioned examination of these topics.
If and when someone wants to start one up, I'm there.
You attack non-Mormans when you called them cowards with your "dare" statement, and then you hide behind supposed civility when you "ask" that they keep everything civil and relevant?
Don't insult people and then ask them to be civil.
I'm intriged by this particular statement. Are you referring to someone wicked, who's also dead? Does this indicate those dead (feel free to deliniate this subgroup further if needed to answer) are given the choice of accepting or rejecting the baptism done (on their behalf) by the living?
Don't insult people and then ask them to be civil.
I'm a non-Mormon, and I'm not insulted by this in the slightest. I know exactly what he's talking about.
Don't insult people and then ask them to be civil.
What?
I am a non-Mormon. I haven't attacked anybody. Sorry you took it that way. I think there's some background info that you are not aware of. FReepmail me if you want it.
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