Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone?

drstevej

[Wrigley]

I don't mind if you disagree, in fact I appreciate it as it forces me to think clearly about what I am saying.

Its just too bad that your thinking isn't totally clear. I'm still praying that God in His mercy opens your eyes, so that you may drop your false beliefs in mormonism.

[The Bard]

I can tell you're curious, and I don't mind trying to answer your questions.

I'm just a bit tired of being "stalked" by the same band of zealots whose very existence seems to be taken up with excoriating my religious faith.

I don't mind if you disagree, in fact I appreciate it as it forces me to think clearly about what I am saying.

I can understand getting tired of feeling as if stalked. I have run into that at times and know how you feel.

At the same time, Christ said we would face persecution.

If you want, you can always post private replies. I will be glad to discuss this whenever you would wish. We may both yet learn something.

[Notwithstanding]

have found the Latin!

The word used is "relligio":

religio (relligio) -onis f. , of persons, [scrupulousness, conscientious exactness]; esp. [religious scruple, awe, superstition, strict observance]

---

The Latin, verbatim:

"Nam ea demum est germana adversus Deiparentum relligio, quae profluat animo; ..."

Nam [for]
ea [from]
demum [only]
est [is]
germana [real, true]
adversus [turned toward]
Deiparentum [mother of God]
relligio, [devotion]
quae [which]
profluat [flows forth]
animo; [the heart]

I would piece it together as follows:

"For true devotion toward the mother of God is only that which flows forth from the heart;"

---

Pope Pius X - "Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum" - promulgated on 2/2/1904

Here's the potentially offending section in english:

"17. For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them."

In French:

"Car enfin, pour être de bon aloi, le culte de la Mère de Dieu doit jaillir du cœur ; les actes du corps n'ont ici utilité ni valeur s'ils sont isolés des actes de l'âme."

In Italian:

"Poiché, infine, è efficace il culto della madre di Dio che viene spontaneo dal cuore, gli atti del corpo non hanno in questo caso né utilità né valore, se sono separati dagli impulsi dell’animo."

In Spanish(?):

"En definitiva, es auténtica la piedad hacia la Madre de Dios cuando nace del alma; y en este punto no tiene valor ni utilidad alguna la acción corporal, si está separada de la actitud del espíritu."

In Latin(the original language):

Nowhere to be found on the world-wide web.

[ksen]

Thanks for being so diligent. Where did you finally find it?

LIke I said, I will desist from using it as proof that Mary worship is taught.

Well, I may slip every once in a while just to get Dave's goat. ;^)

[Notwithstanding]

I decided to ask the research librarian if our library had it on fiche (if you recall, the library has the bound volumes of all papal documents issued each year going back to 1908, I think).

Fortunately, the library has the fiche for earlier years.

[Notwithstanding]

A friend of mine asked what I was doing and when I told him, he gave me an interesting insight he had heard from a Catholic theologian of note (whose name I forget).

I hope this provides some context by which an "outsider" might understand how a Catholic views his religious acts.

You can observe a Catholic doing various religuous acts - such as going to Mass of saying prayers or making the sign of the Cross, or bkessing himself with holy water, or kneeling in prayer, etc.

To the observer it may appear that all those acts are equal in some way. That they are the same, or mean the same to the Catholic they observe. Or that they are equal import or importance to the Catholic.

But the basic doctrine taught to all Catholics (though only truly believed by about half) is that the very Body of Christ is present in our church buildings, in the tabernacle, or on the altar during the Mass. Thus, we actually kneel to worship the physical presence of our Savior - this is why a Catholic makes the sign of the cross and genuflects when entering or passing a Church - to pay homage to the actual physical presence of Christ Our Lord. To the believeing Catholic, he knows this is an act of true worship to the Lord.

For this Catholic to then go to a statue of Mary or St. Joseph and kneel down to say a prayer - well the Catholic has no intent whatsoever to worship the saint. The idea just does not enter into his head. The Catholic laughs to think that kneeling down in prayer with a saint is the same as kneeling down to worship Jesus. It is like saying jelly and peanutbutter are the same because you spread both onto bread with a knife.

A Protestant who finds the idea of worshiping transubstantiated bread and wine to be foreign, cannot understand how this actual worship of God physically present on the earth is seen in the mind of the Catholic. This is worship and it is intense.

I can see how one who rejects this as a possibility would not be able to understand this intensity. Thus, when a protestant sees us venerate a statue, it appears to them to be the same as worship. But for the Catholic it is so very very different. We know what real worship of God present on earth is like because we actually do it. And thus it is clear to us that Mary is subordinate to and saved by Christ. But a protestant cannot absorb this reality because this physical worship of Christ is so foreign to them that anything seeming outwardly pious appears tothem as worship.

I hope this is making some sense to you.

[Poet Laureate]

The original citation is Acta Sanctae Sedis 36:449-462 (1904).

Acta Sanctae Sedis ("Acts of the Holy See") are bound volumes in the original Latin.

[Poet Laureate]

Why did anyone have trouble finding this? Its there for all to see. Just go to the library.

[Poet Laureate]

Why didn't you research this yourself before casting doubt?

[Notwithstanding]

If it is so easy to find, why didn't you post it 1000 posts earlier?

You are a little late to this party.

[Notwithstanding]

But welcome, none-the-less.

[drstevej]

bump

[drstevej]

NOTE: Almost 1 year ago I posted this thread.

Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone?
drstevej
Posted on 04/08/2003 12:29:25 PM CDT by drstevej
OBSERVATIONS:

[1] There seems to be a significantly reduced number of Protestant Threads (KJV Only being the exception for sure) in the FR Religion Forum.

[2] There seems to be a reduced number of FR Protestant posts in the Religion Forum.

This thread is a place to discuss these observations.
 

Compare that to the present. Again, the FR Religion Forum has virtually become a Catholic Chat Room. Note the predominance of threads and posts that are RC. Now, I have no problem with RC FReepers posting as much and as often as they want.

My question is why are there so few Protestant threads and posters. Your thoughts?

[irishtenor]

I'm still here.

[drstevej]

Two Calvinists do constitute a small riot at least.

[irishtenor]

Well, 2 against 4000. One of us will have to leave to make it even.

[JWinNC]

"My question is why are there so few Protestant threads and posters. Your thoughts?"

I don't know, but I'm curious as to why. There was definitely a shift somewhere along the way. I've never thought FR was a very conducive place for religious discussion, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

JWinNC

[Gamecock]

Many of our dearly departed elect brethren are now in the outer darkness.

[drstevej]

***I don't know, but I'm curious as to why. There was definitely a shift somewhere along the way. I've never thought FR was a very conducive place for religious discussion, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.***

First, having read many of the Catholic threads I observe much more opportunity for vigorous debate there than on other threads.

Second, I have observed that the guidelines for discussion are very general on this forum and the enforcement varies from moderator to moderator.

Third, I have observed that the Smokey Back Room does not function as it was designed. Heated religious discussion that was to be moved there (so it could be continued). Yet once moved there it is moderated in a manner little different from the regular religion forum.

Fourth, I believe the addition of an IGNORE function would go a long way to BOTH resolving the "abuse button" issue and restoring vigorous discussion. Having posted on forums with this feature, it really makes a difference. Rather than hitting abuse on an unwanted disruptor one can simply place him on ignore and his posts are no longer visible.

I think an IGNORE function would greatly simplify the difficult task of moderators when personal friction breaks out to a degree that makes either party uncomfortable.

I am pinging the RM to this post not requesting his response, but to offer my observations.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Well, 2 against 4000. One of us will have to leave to make it even. ~~ 1,816 posted on 03/30/2004 7:21:50 PM PST by irishtenor

LOL! Now that's the right attitude.