Conservative vs. Traditional Catholicism - Distinctions with Philosophical Differences

Latin Mass Magazine ^ | Spring 2001 | Fr. Chad Ripperger, FSSP

[traditionalist]

I do not know enough about minor seminaries to argue any position regarding them.

My comment was not directed at your position on minor seminaries per se. It was directed at your flippant dismissal of the value of such seminaries, which are an element of extrinsic tradition. While one who esteems and cherishes extrinsic tradition might seem seek to reform it, such a person would never speak so irreverently about it as did you.

[traditionalist]

Really? They're all anti-John Paul II.

Is that reasonable to you?

Sink, your statements reveal more about what's wrong with the NeoCatholic mindset than any FSSP or Latin Mass essay.

[sinkspur]

While one who esteems and cherishes extrinsic tradition might seem seek to reform it, such a person would never speak so irreverently about it as did you.

Minor seminaries can't be "reformed." That's why they've been closed.

The entire philosophy behind them is flawed.

[traditionalist]

Perhaps it is true that minor seminaries are no longer beneficial or useful, I don't know. It is not your position on this issue per say that I find troubling. It is the manner in which you dismiss them as an anachronism of a past Church. No one with regard for extrinsic tradition would dismiss an element of it so flippantly.

[sinkspur]

It is the manner in which you dismiss them as an anachronism of a past Church. No one with regard for extrinsic tradition would dismiss an element of it so flippantly.

"Extrinsic tradition," is, by definition, external and non-essential. Accretions fall by the wayside all the time (e.g., maniple, biretta, sedia gestatoria, "the pledge").

I will try to take your delicate sensibilities into account when posting.

[traditionalist]

"Extrinsic tradition," is, by definition, external and non-essential. Accretions fall by the wayside all the time (e.g., maniple, biretta, sedia gestatoria, "the pledge").

Again you validate the point of the essay. What distinguishes neoCatholics from traditional Catholics is that the former have little or no regard for extrinsic tradition. The latter recognize that extrinsic tradition is inessential, but it is still valuable, to be treated with reverence, and not reformed unless it is certain that such reform is necessary.

Put another way, the traditional Catholic views any reform of extrinsic tradition with skeptisim and when in doubt rejects reform. Furthermore, the traditional Catholic rejects all radical reform, prefering gradual development, as the Church has always preferred up until the 1960's. The neoCatholic's disposition is exactly the opposite: anything inessential is subject to constant review and change, no matter how radical.

[sinkspur]

The neoCatholic's disposition is exactly the opposite: anything inessential is subject to constant review and change, no matter how radical.

Yes. Precisely because they're inessential, one should always question whether they get in the way of true worship or belief or, in the worst, case, begin assuming an intrinsically traditional role in the minds of some people.

Not everything extrinsic should be rejected, but some should, and have been.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

They are still some open. And I think its offensive to piety to say the philosophy behind them is wrong. Maybe tey don't work so well in today's world, but they worked quite well 50 and 100 years ago.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Accretions fall by the wayside all the time (e.g., maniple, biretta, sedia gestatoria, "the pledge").

Its a detestable travesty these things have been lost, and especially the Soutane (Cassock), which you don't even mention.

[Loyalist]

Yes. Precisely because they're inessential, one should always question whether they get in the way of true worship or belief or, in the worst, case, begin assuming an intrinsically traditional role in the minds of some people.

In other words, extrinsic tradition exists only on suffrance, regardless of its value.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

How did Maniples and Birettas or the psalm Introibo and the Confiteor said at the Foot of the Altar get in the way of truth and right worship?

[1stFreedom]

>>There is no good reason for "minor seminaries." Herding 13 year old boys into environments where they are denied contact with the opposite sex and given the impression that they can discern, at that age, a vocation to the priesthood, is ridiculous.

I disagree. I knew what I wanted to do in life when I was 13 -- and I did it. I think that kids at 13 have a real clue as to what they would like to do in life. While they aren't able to make many mature decisions (financial, etc) they are sometimes capable of having an idea of their future.

Our culture focuses too much time in mediocre eduction. In reality, many kids can start college when they are supposed to start the 9th grade. We just don't shape our youth into adults till much later than 13.

[traditionalist]

Yes. Precisely because they're inessential, one should always question whether they get in the way of true worship or belief or, in the worst, case, begin assuming an intrinsically traditional role in the minds of some people.

I appreciate your candor. Your position is exactly that which traditionalists ascribe to neoCatholics.

Now, if you please, would you care citing a Doctor or Father of the Church who shared this characteristicly neoCatholic disposition?

[ninenot]

If you want the REALLY long version, Fr. Rutler wrote a book on the various philosophical schools and their effects. Unfortunately, I gave away the book and can't recall the title, but Ignatius Press is the publisher.

Rutler's book, however, is not meant to distinguish 'traditionalists' from 'neo-cons.' It does give an exhaustive analysis of the philosophes, however..

Thanks for the post. Certain people will be delighted to know that Fr. Ripperger teaches at the Lincoln Diocesan Minor Seminary. Others will be aghast.

[ninenot]

He also published a couple of items on the liturgy and music which are worthwhile--same venue.

[ninenot]

For neos, life began at Vatican II 35 years ago

While it is unfair to make categorical statements, Fr.R's thesis holds water for the general case.

But this is hardly restricted to the religion forum. It is visible at the Supreme Court of the USA, and in the daily press (which displays a ghastly unfamiliarity with history.)

[traditionalist]

While it is unfair to make categorical statements, Fr.R's thesis holds water for the general case.

It's amazing how Sinkspur and other neoCatholic Freepers so precisely fit the mold outlined in the essay.

[ninenot]

Perhaps we should use terms such as "Historically Void" and "Historically Informed?"

I have spent well over 40 years in the arena of church music and can tell you without a doubt that, in general terms, FrR's thesis holds water in that area of the world.

It is now to the point where 'serious' composers simply will not bother to write for the RC Church (with a few exceptions, of course,) because if the music reflects what has been traditionally regarded as art (form, content, beauty) it's simply not sale-able.

BTW, I also have an interesting paper on the topic of art (graphic art) which bemoans a virtually identical split on the 'art world.'

Call it what you like: it's real.

[ninenot]

Actually, the purpose is to make them high-school graduates who have a better-than-average understanding of Catholicism.

It's an excellent 'washout' vehicle and (as it was operated in Milwaukee) the washouts were in no way painted with a scarlet letter.'

A LOT depends on the Bishop and the administrators, Sink...

[ninenot]

Lemmee see, heah, folks: Sink absolutely SKEWERS the Pope for maintaining the discipline of celibacy for RC priests but not Episcopalian converts and RAILS against JPII for his position on the Iraq War.

THEN Sinky lambastes 'Pope-bashers.'

Ehhhhhhh, what's up, Doc?