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Conservative vs. Traditional Catholicism - Distinctions with Philosophical Differences
Latin Mass Magazine ^ | Spring 2001 | Fr. Chad Ripperger, FSSP

Posted on 07/15/2003 2:07:08 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah

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To: Loyalist
In other words, extrinsic tradition exists only on suffrance, regardless of its value.

On the contrary, if it's valuable, it will stay. This idea that all of extrinsic tradition has been cast aside after Vatican II is just laughable. Bishops still wear rings, just not with $10,000 stones in them, just as few wear jeweled mitres or carry gold crosiers.

I'm glad that the Church has tried to simplify many externals and become less regal in its bearing.

61 posted on 07/16/2003 1:25:41 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ninenot; Canticle_of_Deborah
Ehhhhhhh, what's up, Doc?

Celibacy is a discipline, and the Pope's opinions on political issues are fair game.

The trads often accuse the Pope of misleading the faithful in matters liturgical and doctrinal.

No comparison.

62 posted on 07/16/2003 1:29:05 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: traditionalist
Now, if you please, would you care citing a Doctor or Father of the Church who shared this characteristicly neoCatholic disposition?

Maybe you ought to define what you mean by extrinsic tradition. I take it to mean trappings, and customs, and the like which have no real bearing on doctrine.

What do you take it to mean?

63 posted on 07/16/2003 1:33:37 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Bishops still wear rings

Perhaps of interest to you, Weakland did not wear a ring and positively avoided the 'kneel and kiss the ring' thing.

64 posted on 07/16/2003 1:39:53 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: 1stFreedom
While they aren't able to make many mature decisions (financial, etc) they are sometimes capable of having an idea of their future.

Whether or not one wants to marry is a mature decision, and can't be made at the age of 13.

65 posted on 07/16/2003 1:41:34 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Think a jeweled putter would be considered to "regal"?

- Pope Piel

Might also need a chin strap for the big hat too for when I bend over to concentrate on a putt.
66 posted on 07/16/2003 1:45:36 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
How did Maniples and Birettas or the psalm Introibo and the Confiteor said at the Foot of the Altar get in the way of truth and right worship?

The Confiteor (as you know) is one of the optional penitential rites in the Novus Ordo. What is the purpose of the Introit or the Last Gospel?

They're just not essential. One could say the same about the Sign of Peace, which could be eliminated tomorrow AFAIC.

67 posted on 07/16/2003 1:49:08 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ninenot
If you want the REALLY long version, Fr. Rutler wrote a book on the various philosophical schools and their effects.

Actually it was Fr. Rutler speaking on EWTN about 10 years ago, who first began the process of my conversion to tradition. He was giving a talk on modern philosophies, and he was comparing the Catholic tradition of realist philosophy with the false and dangerous modern philosophy of phenomenology. I asked myself, "Wait a second, isn't the pope a phenomenologist?" That small pebble started the landslide until finally I realized that everything I had been accepting as part of the Catholic Church was "false and dangerous." I even had participated in Renew -- at a parish that was famous for being ultra-conservative. The pastor of this same ultra-conservative parish told my wife it was okay to use contraception. Then I realized that phenomenology was the underlying philosophy for the Church's new approach to morality as well. The whole thing was built on a lie; every bit of the "post-conciliar Church" was based upon a false and dangerous philosophy.

68 posted on 07/16/2003 1:52:32 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: ninenot
Perhaps of interest to you, Weakland did not wear a ring and positively avoided the 'kneel and kiss the ring' thing.

Bishops should wear rings; most of them opt for the plain gold band that JP II wears.

I don't wear a wedding ring. I've got some strange (and rare) allergic reaction to rings or watches made with precious metal. I've never been able to wear jewelry, and have to wear a cheap watch with a leather band.

No medals around the neck, either. The brown scapular is all I can wear, which I've worn since I was in grade school.

Mary made that promise, you know, to those who wear her scapular, and I'm holding her to it.

69 posted on 07/16/2003 1:57:57 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
I always thought gold was hypoallergenic.
70 posted on 07/16/2003 2:22:22 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Not to me, apparently.

My wife said if she couldn't wear jewelry she'd kill herself.

71 posted on 07/16/2003 2:23:57 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
They're like magpies - always drawn to bright, shiny things.

;)

72 posted on 07/16/2003 2:26:15 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine; sinkspur
Allergies to metal are not all that rare, but it is a problem for some people. There are ways to coat the metal, but it has to be done periodically.

Not a problem that I have, but I'm a silver wearing lady anyway.
73 posted on 07/16/2003 2:35:16 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: sinkspur
The Introit sets the theme of the Mass. As you know, the Introit is "the entrance antiphon" and only if the Introit is NOT sung is there an "entrance hymn."

Of course, it was present in Rome in the early liturgies--THAT is provable, not speculative. But because a trained schola is necessary to sing it, and it remained in Latin, it was quietly dropped by neo-conservatives and Libbies alike.
74 posted on 07/16/2003 4:55:43 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Maximilian
Phenomenology, per se is the wrong philosophy. JPII, however, married phenomenology to Thomism. It wasn't easy, and his work is still largely unexplained by people like Fr. Ripperger (who, along with Rutler, could break it down into edible bits...) but it will happen.
75 posted on 07/16/2003 4:58:31 PM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
Actually, Fr. Ripperger explains JPII's method in this article. It is called the Hegelian dialectic. In this case, Thomism, is the existing element or thesis. It is opposed by Phenomenology, the antithesis. The synthesis of the two represents a new thesis which is an advance over the old (Thomism).

The whole problem with the pope's method is that it embraces the modern philosophy of Hegel.

Perhaps his work, which has been around for over twenty years, is still largely unexplained because it is utterly unexplainable.

76 posted on 07/16/2003 9:43:00 PM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: Bellarmine
Reading JPII's work is a chore, to say the least.

But even the MOST conservative theologian I know has mentioned, frequently, that the Church has often, and successfully, "baptized" non-Catholic concepts for Her own, and better, use.

Further, as you know, the Catholic mind seeks synthesis (while maintaining doctrinal impeccability.) Has do do with that prayer for unity of Christ, you know...

Thus, a reconciliation of Hegel to Aquinas is not, in itself, some sort of launch into Protestantism; it is no different than Aquinas' reconciliation of Aristotle to Catholicism. Please note that we ARE speaking of "toward Catholicism" or "into Catholicism." The phrase is meaningful...

Further, the concept that "new" is de-facto "bad" is utterly ridiculous--as is its opposite (played hard by the poofter-wonks) that "old" is "bad." I am certain that you do not wish to become a knee-jerk reactionary.

As you can determine from hundreds of prior posts, I am hardly a neo-con admirer. On the other hand, the Pope is a fairly smart guy, and he is informed by REALLY good sources from above.

Last, not least: if his attempted reconciliation does not work, the Faith has not been compromised. The Nicene Creed was not revoked, nor the efficacy of the Mass and the sacraments.
77 posted on 07/17/2003 5:27:51 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
Thus, a reconciliation of Hegel to Aquinas is not, in itself, some sort of launch into Protestantism

He is attempting a synthesis of Phenomenology to Thomism according to the modern philosophy of Hegel.

78 posted on 07/17/2003 5:34:42 AM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: ninenot
Reading JPII's work is a chore, to say the least.

Hardly a "pastoral" approach is it -- for the Pope to write documents that no one can read? Isn't it ironic that in the days before the Church became "pastoral," the popes wrote in plain English (translated from the Latin of course) that anyone could read and understand.

even the MOST conservative theologian I know has mentioned, frequently, that the Church has often, and successfully, "baptized" non-Catholic concepts for Her own, and better, use.

This is easily and frequently misunderstood. There are natural goods which can be put to a supernatural purpose. But something which is inherently bad can never be "baptized." The Church has never taken the tradition of temple prostitutes and "baptized" it. Nor can it take a false and pernicious philosophy like Hegel's and baptize it. Aristotle outlined the basic principles of logic and reason which are natural goods and in no way contradictory to divine revelation.

Thus, a reconciliation of Hegel to Aquinas is not, in itself, some sort of launch into Protestantism

No, it's much worse than that. It's a launch into the post-modern world materialism, skepticism, and ultimately atheism.

the Pope is a fairly smart guy, and he is informed by REALLY good sources from above

It is not Catholicism to believe that the pope receives direct divine inspiration. No one ever said the pope was Delphic oracle. His inspiration should come from Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium, just like all other Catholics. The most dangerous possible aberration most likely to destroy the Catholic faith in the shortest possible time is to believe that the pope is some sort of medium for transmitting messages from heaven.

if his attempted reconciliation does not work, the Faith has not been compromised.

I see the faith compromised all around me. The new method is not to come right out and to make heretical declarations like Luther or Calvin. The more sophisticated method is to effect a reconciliation between truth and error, without ever directly denying the truth.

79 posted on 07/17/2003 7:07:47 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Bellarmine
So what?

If he can do so and in the course of the work preserve orthodoxy, so what?
80 posted on 07/17/2003 7:08:33 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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