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Former NTSB Official Doubts Accident Caused Flight 587 Crash
NewsMax.com ^ | 11/12/01

Posted on 11/13/2001 3:32:01 AM PST by vrwc54

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To: vrwc54
I just wish they would take a good long look at each and every mechanic and other personnel who were involved with that plane as it sat beyond it's take-off time due to some problem. I just have this gut feeling about it. I hope I am wrong.
41 posted on 11/13/2001 5:03:29 AM PST by Republic
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To: BeforeISleep; vrwc54
And by the way, I'll probably have to get another keyboard after seeing the picture in your profile. LOL!

I had to look too. Great pic. vrwc54 needs to post it.

42 posted on 11/13/2001 5:04:01 AM PST by FR_addict
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To: TankerKC
More about Grose from the other thread.
43 posted on 11/13/2001 5:05:34 AM PST by vrwc54
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To: zog
Now THAT's a tantalizing (and good) theory! Why didn't I think of that? Good job. It's the Reno Doctrine. Disarm the good guys, then kill them to protect everyone. Hmmmm.
44 posted on 11/13/2001 5:09:49 AM PST by jammer
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To: mommadooo3
LOL--to my knowledge, we don't have anounceable bombs yet! That's one of the things I found odd too, but there are more. I do believe coincidences occur, but so many? It happened 2 months and 1 day after 9/11. It happened in NYC. It happened in the time frame the terrorists seem to prefer--8-9 a.m. It occurred just after (yet another) "general" warning to be on alert for terrorist activity. It occurred after OBL gave a speech saying more planes would fall out of the sky.

It does not particularly comfort me when people who have not yet retrieved the wreckage--let alone examined it--immediately and forcefully state that it was an accident. It comforts me still less when they mention this just after stating that if it's a terrorist attack, it will kill off the airline industry. (As if mechanical defaults will make any of us feel more comfortable about flying!)

45 posted on 11/13/2001 5:09:53 AM PST by MizSterious
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To: BeforeISleep
It could have also been an act of sabotage during maintenance?

I think that's very likely. Also someone pointed out this plane was making round trips to Santo Domingo so the sabatage could have been done there out of the US, even the planting of a bomb.

46 posted on 11/13/2001 5:11:38 AM PST by FITZ
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To: vrwc54
This was also my initial thought but after considering it for a while I've concluded that there might be another explanation.

The area where the engines and most of the aircraft came down is only three or four blocks wide, with Jamaica Bay on one side and the Atlantic Ocean on the other.

1. The vertical stabilizer is a lot lighter than an engine.

2. From observing the smoke plume, it is obvious that there was a fairly strong breeze off of the ocean - toward Jamaica Bay.

3. Depending on the altitude of the aircraft when the "engine came off", and the distance "off-shore" where the stabilizer and other "light" parts fell in Jamaica Bay it is conceivable that the engine could have knocked these parts off. The engine would have dropped almost vertical but the lighter parts could have been blown back the several blocks toward Jamaica Bay.

Just a thought. We'll soon know for sure.

47 posted on 11/13/2001 5:18:08 AM PST by jackbill
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To: mommadooo3
Hate to say it... but thank GOD that this IS the land of a certain Constitutional right.

Well, it once was. I don't know if it is anymore other than lip service.

I remember the AA Chicago O'Hare crash in 1979. An engine fell off that plane too. But they didn't find the tail in Lake Michigan. The plane fell down; it didn't disintegrate.

This crash is far different.

Any confirmation that this flight originated in Boston?

48 posted on 11/13/2001 5:19:39 AM PST by Mad-Margaret
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To: vrwc54
Thanks. I found through Google that he is specialist in Risk Management and has designed some sort of investigation model that can be applied to any kind of accident. He apparently has no specific aviation expertise...which shows when he is yammering on TV.
49 posted on 11/13/2001 5:22:33 AM PST by TankerKC
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To: vrwc54
--not saying I completely support this, but the theory is based on some of these 'too many eyewitnesses" reports from yesterday,I didn't just poof make it up, I read it here in fact, it's someplace close in the threads..

The helicopter was really reported close by, by eyewitnesses, the fighter plane also close by to the airbus, like, where's these guys testimony, and why were those first inital eyewitness reports being ignored now? Where's the statements from the crews on those military aircraft, they were even closer eyewitnesses in the area then the guys in the boats and on the ground when it all went down. Haven't heard an official peep from government about those eyewitnesses, nor heard any talking head ask any questions about them.

If I don't ask it, someone else is going to remember and ask it, and never been a-skeered of a tinfoil label, never. It really is simple, the still alive eyewitnesses who were in closest proximity to the airbus at the start of the incident are remaining un-quoted and ignored by the press, just wondering what their story is. I offered a possible explanation, which is not all that farfetched. there is precedent, iranair is one example, twa800 *might* be another example.

Just a rhetorical question, doesn't require an answer, but last year,just a year ago, would you have believed a 'shoot down" order on civil aircraft from the government, instead of just arming the pilots and crew? In a perceived emergency? "Shoot down" means shoot down. The nation is jumpy, these military protectors are jumpy, signals can get crossed, stuff happens. I know a guy misread a number over a radio, just a number, up and down the c and c chain it went, all the way to a pretty spectacular "friendly fire" episode. stuff happens.

This is a possibility, and I wonder aloud about it because the closest eyewitnesses are not being questioned about it, the government has not even offered a synopsis of what they might have seen, which you would think they would have been extremely fast to do, but they haven't done so. One leads to the other. If they haven't, 'why not"? they didn't see anything? Doubt that. If they saw the plane just start breaking up in flight, what's the odds joe government would be crowing about what they saw? Odds are highly in that favor you would think. Instead, nothing, no reports from those pilots or crew, even massaged reports.

50 posted on 11/13/2001 5:23:40 AM PST by zog
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To: jammer
Good point. Do you think the FBI has focus groups to try out various explanations?

Yes, absolutely no doubt. Hopefully they are adept at separating the overzealousness associated with the pundits who almost want a terrorist act to have taken place and those of us who realize that honesty in these uncertain times is a virtue. If our leadership could do anything to build upon the newly found solidarity of the people, it would be to GO HONEST! I truly believe that we will see the same amount of aircraft industry suffering regardless of which event is proven to have taken place.

Two month ago 3 planes were flown into buildings for Gods sake, and as of yesterday we were back up to 80% of pre 9/11 flyership.

51 posted on 11/13/2001 5:31:06 AM PST by Nimitz
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To: FITZ
I don't like the fact that the NTSB decided to say that it probably wasn't terrorist related almost immediately after the crash. I don't believe what they're saying. And if they think that I would feel better thinking that planes "just fall apart" they're wrong. They can spin it any way they want to, I don't believe them.
52 posted on 11/13/2001 5:32:17 AM PST by firewalk
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To: vrwc54
I heard it as well. There was also film footage of the vertical stabilizer, minus the rudder, being lifted out of the water by a crane.
53 posted on 11/13/2001 5:34:18 AM PST by wjcsux
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To: zog
Were they BLACK helicopters, Zog?
54 posted on 11/13/2001 5:36:07 AM PST by skateman
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To: BeforeISleep; vrwc54
And by the way, I'll probably have to get another keyboard after seeing the picture in your profile. LOL!

ya know I had to look at that pic. I would of thought OLB would have hairier legs, not into shaving at all. Ha!

55 posted on 11/13/2001 5:36:43 AM PST by Clovis_Skeptic
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To: jammer
Cynics weren't so bad...

From Webster's:

cyn·ic (snk) n.
1. A person who believes all people are motivated by selfishness.
2. A person whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative.
3. Cynic A member of a sect of ancient Greek philosophers who believed virtue to be the only good and self-control to be the only means of achieving virtue.
56 posted on 11/13/2001 5:42:23 AM PST by StockAyatollah
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To: KentuckyWoman
Don't cha hate it, sometimes, when we're right....?
57 posted on 11/13/2001 5:44:00 AM PST by Alabama_Wild_Man
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To: zog
Re "shootdown scenarios." I highly doubt this happened, but remember that we have a lot of NATO pilots doing CAPS on the east coast. While they all speak english, in the confusion of the moment, is not a misunderstanding just a little more possible with non-native speakers?
58 posted on 11/13/2001 5:50:45 AM PST by cookcounty
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To: vrwc54
The engine is massive and has a lot of momentum. It will tend to be projected along the flight path if it comes loose.

The tail is big and flat and wingy-like. It has a "low reynolds number" whereas the engine has a high reynolds number. The air appears "more soupy" to the tail than it does to the engine--which is essentially a big bullet. The tail will tend to 'flutter' down, with a high drag coefficient and rapid loss of forward velocity.

Think "ballistic coefficient".

It is entirely possible for the tail to be retarded by viscous aerodynamic forces while the engine is not retarded as much.

I am not saying this is what happened, but it is a technically plausible explanation.

--Boris

59 posted on 11/13/2001 5:57:20 AM PST by boris
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To: cookcounty
--now THAT is a good point, I had completely forgotten about tthe recent announcements of the foreign AWACS presence, and who knows what they saw/heard/relayed, etc. English as a clunky second language does not lead to great communications, Heck, I've had a hard time ordering at a drive-thru with me speaking bubba, and the voice on the other side of the intercom speaking ebonics, with both being classified as "english".

Hmm, speaking of awacs, where's the radar data? Exactly how close were the reported military planes/helo to this airbus?

The quicker the questions get asked, the better, in my opinion, this case or anything else. Every day that slips by is another day for spin to be thought of. I've seriously questioned 'government" since kennedy got whacked, and whopper after story after absurdity got carved in stone as 'the offical line". There has been a track record of way too many lies compared to truth. And way too many people have been historically scared to even question, they fear the 'anti government" label I guess, or something. I like government when it works, wish to clean up the messes when it doesn't work or lies about stuff. It's not black and white to me, it's detailed case by case by case. Does this past the smell test? If it doesn't, ask questions, hard questions, and never let up. More people do that, the better off we all are, and the more honest and efficient government becomes, because "we" are the government, they are supposed to follow our orders, not vice versa.

60 posted on 11/13/2001 6:17:19 AM PST by zog
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