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To: VectoRama
"Almost every sentence you wrote is completely contrary to the facts before you."

Let's take a look at that.
Your first point "Beers said their activity was not classified."
I didn't say he did. That was Irvine's input. But Beers did say what I highlighted in bold print. He says his sub was a couple miles off Long Island and it is a fact that when TWA 800 exploded it was still daylight.
Your next point "The submariner here said the Trepang can dive in even shallower water."
Actually, what he said is it could submerge in shallower water. According to Beers' buddy, Beer's said the sub crash dived. Big difference.
Your next point "The TWA crash was not "in broad daylight.""
Really? Several eyewitnesses reported observing TWA 800 before it exploded. One even reported watching the right wing fall off. It must have been light enough for eyewitnesses to see an airliner at 13,000ft while standing at least eight miles away on Long Island. And surely if you can see an airliner 8 miles away, you must be able to see a surfaced submarine a couple miles away. Are you saying eyewitnesses might be wrong?
Next point: "The Trepang could have filmed falling debris regardless of the time it took it to dive."
I suppose. But how often does a submarine use its periscope on the surface?
Final point: "There are radar tracks other than the 30-knot track."
Sure, but find me one that matches Beer's description other than the 30 knot track. There isn't one.

My final point...I don't believe anything I wrote is contrary to the facts. What is clear is that the "facts" as presented by Irvine are either contridictory or impossible and for the most part, assumptions based on his understanding of the facts. Again, I say, if his goal is accuracy in media, he is a fraud.

48 posted on 03/01/2002 1:21:42 PM PST by Rokke
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To: Rokke
I suppose. But how often does a submarine use its periscope on the surface?

Again you are showing your ignorance of these things. A submarine almost always has its periscope up on the surface, especially in busy traffic areas. Both to keep track of surface contacts and navigation aides.

Here is the radar map, the 33 knot target is not TREPANG, or any other submarine. While submarines may be able to exceed 25 knots underwater, they are much slower on the surface.


50 posted on 03/01/2002 2:27:03 PM PST by SubMareener
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To: Rokke
Your first point "Beers said their activity was not classified." I didn't say he did.

It sure looks like you did. You said:

So if we are to believe Beers, we need to accept that the USS Trepang was operating covertly, in a classified exercise..."

Since Beers said the activity was not classified, I don't see why believing him requires that we believe the activity was classified. Back to your reply.

Your next point "The submariner here said the Trepang can dive in even shallower water." Actually, what he said is it could submerge in shallower water. According to Beers' buddy, Beer's said the sub crash dived. Big difference.

Not a significant difference according to the submariner, who told you..... "The 637 Class boats had very small vents, and no bow planes. A "Crash Dive" would be ordering the vents opened before you left the bridge (see #3)."

Your next point "The TWA crash was not "in broad daylight."" Really? Several eyewitnesses reported observing TWA 800 before it exploded.

If "broad daylight" means "any time in which visibility is not zero," even when the sun is below the horizon, you're right.

Final point: "There are radar tracks other than the 30-knot track." Sure, but find me one that matches Beer's description other than the 30 knot track. There isn't one.

There are some tracks about 4 or 5 miles from the crash. I'm not sure the chart on the other page is as clear as others I've seen. Beers was pretty clear that he's making estimates, he even notes that he doesn't not have navigational charts before him.

64 posted on 03/02/2002 5:37:26 PM PST by VectoRama
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To: Rokke
it is a fact that when TWA 800 exploded it was still daylight.

It couldn't have been.

On July 17, 1996, in New York, sunset occurred at 7:24 PM. Flight 800 exploded at 8:31 PM.

While the aircraft might have still been in direct sunlight because of its altitude (and thus clearly visible from the ground), how much daylight would you expect there to be at ground level 67 minutes after sunset?

165 posted on 03/04/2002 11:43:39 AM PST by Steve1789
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