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CITIZENS’ TRUTH-IN-TAXATION HEARING
We the People Organization ^ | 03/04/02 | Bob Schulz

Posted on 03/04/2002 2:19:12 PM PST by Dementon

 

OPENING REMARKS by Bob Schulz

CITIZENS’ TRUTH-IN-TAXATION HEARING

Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the Citizens’ Truth-in-Taxation Hearing.

On behalf of myself and the We The People Foundation for Constitutional Education, I extend a very heartfelt welcome to all of you in our audience today, to the thousands of people who are watching theses proceedings via our live web cast and to the countless thousands who will later be watching via digital and taped recordings of the hearing.

We are happy to sponsor this most extraordinary educational event.

WELCOME ALL.

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

DO WE STILL RECOGNIZE IT AS THE BASIS OF OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT IN AMERICA, OR NOT?

DO WE STILL HAVE A CONSTITUTION THAT GUARANTEES OUR UNALIENABLE RIGHTS AS THE SOVEREIGN CITIZENS OF A GREAT AND FREE NATION, OR NOT?

DO WE HAVE A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE GOVERNMENTS THAT HONOR AND DEFEND THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF EQUAL JUSTICE, DUE PROCESS OF LAW, THE RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND PROPERTY --- THE PRINCIPLES THAT REPRESENT THE VERY FOUNDATION OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FORM OF GOVERNMENT, OR NOT?

WE THE PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH. WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW IF WE STILL HAVE A CONSTITUTION.

This is a copy of a message we published in the NY Times on Sunday, February 10th.

At the top of the ad we quote Alan Dershowitz, a prominent, nationally recognized Professor of Law at Harvard University, saying that:

  • We, the People of this country, have NO unalienable rights,

  • That all our rights are SUBJECT TO MODIFICATION,

  • That the Constitution of the United States of America is nothing more than a piece of paper and

  • That our government SHOULD NOT BE RESTRAINED by the Constitution because our government can do good things for people.

In effect, Mr. Dershowitz is saying that the system of governance in America has been transformed from a constitutional-republic to a democracy—that the government can do whatever it wants to do for, or TO, the people – that we are now governed by the rule of men and their whim, rather than by a Constitution.

It is Mr. Dershowitz’s opinion--an opinion shared by the leaders of our major political parties, our courts, and most of our nation’s print and broadcast media--that those PERSONAL RIGHTS ENUMERATED IN THE FIRST TEN AMENDMENTS TO OUR CONSTITUTION (OUR BILL OF RIGHTS), NO LONGER EXIST EXCEPT AT THE WHIM AND DISCRETION OF GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS AND CAREER POLITICIANS--THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND PROPERTY EXCEPT BY GOVERNMENT PERMISSION.

MR. DERSHOWITZ CONTENDS THAT ALL INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS DERIVE FROM GOVERNMENT--THAT AS AMERICANS WE HAVE NO RIGHTFUL CLAIM TO OUR OWN LIVES AND TO OUR OWN PROPERTY. EVERYTHING THAT WE EARN FROM OUR LABOR—EVERYTHING THAT WE OWN THROUGH OUR HARD WORK AND PERSONAL SACRIFICE, WE OWE TO GOVERNMENT. CAN THIS BE TRUE? ARE WE NO LONGER ONE NATION UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. DO WE SERVE OUR GOVERNMENT--OR DOES OUR GOVERNMENT SERVE US. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

Mr. Dershowitz made this assertion that our Constitution is merely a piece of paper---that we Americans have no God-given, unalienable rights---during a televised debate with Alan Keyes at Franklin and Marshall College, in September 2000.

This is a video tape of the debate as broadcast by C-Span.

Before the New York Times agreed to run our ad on February 10th, their lawyers wanted proof that Mr. Dershowitz actually said those things about our rights and the constitution.

I had to agree to play the video tape, while holding a telephone near the television, so the Times’ lawyer could hear Mr. Dersowitz speaking those words. The times evidently expected a significant public reaction to our ad—and specifically to Mr. Dershowitz’s statements.

I too, expected a significant reaction to Mr. Dershowitz’s comments, and to our message in the February 10th NY Times ad.

I expected outrage from those individuals and institutions well known for their eloquent rhetoric in defense of our Constitution and our unalienable rights as Americans citizens. Such organizations as the Cato Institute, The Heritage Foundation, The Future of Freedom Foundation, The Libertarian Party, the Reform Party, the Constitution Party—even Jesse Ventura.

I expected a resounding denunciation of Mr. Dershowitz’s statements by the so-called champions of liberty in our government--people like Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and congressional members of the Liberty Caucus. I expected to hear loud protests from the few patriotic members of our print and broadcast media like the Washington Times.

I was certain that religious leaders across the country would passionately object to Mr. Dershowitz’s claim that Americans have no unalienable or constitutionally guaranteed right to religious expression without government approval. I expected patriotic attorneys and business people from every corner of our great nation to stand in protest of Mr. Dershowitz’s contention that our constitution is merely a piece of paper.

I hoped, and believed that after reading the NY Times ad, American men and women from every walk of life would loudly reject Mr. Dershowitz’a claim that government should be given absolute control and supreme authority over our lives.

But I was wrong. We heard from no one.

No voice was raised in public in defense of our unalienable rights or the original meaning of our Constitution.

We heard nothing from our elected officials, from mainstream journalists, from prominent constitutional lawyers, from religious or academic leaders, or from Washington think tanks.

So what are we, the People, to make of this?

Has the Constitution really become a dead letter?

Has our sacred Bill of Rights been destroyed by an arrogant, out-of-control and unaccountable government that has no respect for the precious liberties of every American citizen. Do we the People no longer have the right, or the power, to establish boundaries around the authority of our federal government?

We The People had better take notice.

When government takes one step outside the boundaries drawn around its power, it takes possession of a boundless field of authority, no longer capable of definition.

There is a word for rulers unrestrained by law or constitutions --for usurpers of the people’s sovereignty.

That word is “Tyrant.”

There is a word for a system of government in which the rulers have unlimited power.

That word is “Despotism.”

Government is the enemy of freedom. Unrestrained government is not the benefactor of the people. As Amercians, we democratically elect our political representatives. But America is not a Democracy. Democracy is mob-rule.

In a Democracy, 51% of the voting population can deny 49% of their fellow citizens their unalienable rights to life, liberty and property. I ask you to think about it. Is that what our founders intended for us when they wrote the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and Bill of Rights over 200 years ago?

In a Constitutional Republic, such as we have in America, EVERY one of our citizens---regardless of his or her race, religion, political influence, social status, or economic station in life---has unalienable, constitutionally protected rights that cannot be lawfully abridged by a power hungry government. And it is those Americans who are most vulnerable to the abuses of democratic mob-rule and government tyranny who are most protected by our Constitutional Republican form of government.

We would do well to remember those occasions in modern history when democratically elected governments have violated their citizen’s most basic rights to life, liberty and property because a MAJORITY of the population found it acceptable. In America, there are only two things that stand between the people and government tyranny---those are our Constitution and our will as a free people to protect and defend it.

IN AMERICA, THE RIGHT TO PETITION OUR GOVERNMENT FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES IS THE BASIS OF OUR LIBERTY. OUR FOUNDERS EXPLICITLY RECOGNIZED THIS RIGHT IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO OUR CONSTITUTION—FOR THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT WITHOUT IT, WE COULD NOT HAVE A SERVANT GOVERNMENT WHOSE POWER IS DEFINED AND LIMITED BY THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE.

In America, the right to petition our government for a redress of grievances is an unalienable right—it derives from our faith in a supreme being—an ultimate moral authority from whom we gain our understanding of equality, justice and the rule of law. Implicit in our first amendment constitutional right to petition our government for a redress of grievances, is the government’s absolute moral and legal obligation to respond honestly and completely to the people’s petition.

This is the essential cornerstone of Popular Sovereignty – A government of the People, by the People, FOR the People.

One of the earliest recorded guarantees of the people’s right to petition the King for redress of grievances is found in chapter 61 of the Magna Carta, written of 1215. Over time, Parliament came to claim the right to dictate the form of the King’s reply.

By 1669, Parliament resolved that every commoner in England possessed “the inherent right to prepare and present petitions” to it “in case of grievance,” and that Parliament had “to receive the same” and to judge whether they were “fit” to be received.

In 1689, Chapter 5 of the English Bill of Rights asserted the right of the subjects to petition the King and “all prosecutions for such petitioning to be illegal.” In other words, human liberty had evolved to the point where the government’s customary practice of using a person’s Petition for Redress as grounds for more persecution and abuse was firmly challenged on moral and legal grounds—it was no longer generally accepted that a persons rights and freedoms came from the king---but ultimately derived from a much higher authority

It came to pass that a free people understood that, in practical effect, they had no rights—they were not really free--unless their right to Petition the government and government’s obligation to respond was guaranteed in writing.

In 1776, as the concept of guaranteeing liberty through written constitutions evolved, the right to petition became the primary right of the People populating the states. That guarantee was expressed up front in the Constitutions of the Republics of New York State, Virginia, and the other State Republics as they came along.

In 1791, the right to petition became the primary right of the People of the United States of America, expressed in the First Amendment to the federal Constitution.

Some would now have us believe that our First Amendment right of petition is nothing more than a guarantee of free speech. That this vital constitutional protection—the very basis of our liberty---is simply a right to voice our grievances to the government. Some would try to convince us that We The People do not have the absolute right to an honest and complete response to our petition---or the authority to demand that our government correct the abuses and violations of our liberties that resulted in our petition.

What nonsense! This is dangerous talk to a free people. We must not listen to those who would denigrate our constitution, and undermine the principles of liberty and justice that gave birth to our nation.

At best they are imbeciles, and at worst they are tyrants -- or “sharing bedrooms” with tyrants.

We must steel ourselves to this nonsense. We must harden our hearts to these false notions that government is God. Government has but one legitimate purpose---to serve and protect all of the people equally. Government is not God. It is our servant. It is accountable to We The People.

The RIGHT to Petition for Redress of Grievances is the final protection – the final, check and balance in our system of Constitutional government in which the government derives its limited powers from the consent of the sovereign people.

This is the right which publicly reveals and reiterates for all, who is Master and who is Servant

If our RIGHT to Petition has truly become void of substance, we can ask no more than to see the truth.

THIS HEARING IS ABOUT TRUTH. THIS HEARING IS ABOUT FACTS. WE ARE HERE TO PROTECT AND DEFEND THE TRUTHS THAT WE HOLD TO BE SELF-EVIDENT. THIS HEARING IS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR NATION----ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

This hearing is about the “LAW” and it is about what we have allowed our “GOVERNMENT” to become.

But even more importantly, this hearing is about US---“WE THE PEOPLE”. Who we are and Who we want to be. What kind of country do we want to leave to our children and future generations of Americans.

Over the next two days, you will hear the facts. You will see the law. You will be able to judge the truth.

You will see how our government has crafted and perpetuated the largest illusion and fraud ever witnessed on planet Earth. You will learn the truth about a powerful central government that hates and fears personal freedom and individual responsibility, and sees popular sovereignty as a threat to its complete authority and control over our lives. We will prove conclusively that the United States federal government---like a thief in the night---has subtly, over many years, stripped the American people of our liberty, our property, and in many cases, our very lives in order to protect and perpetuate a fraudulent, debt-based money system---and the life-blood of that system---the horribly unjust and unconstitutional personal income tax.

As you observe these truths being unveiled, consider how WE as a PEOPLE have let this happen.

Consider the role that each of us as citizens has played as unwitting participants and silent conspirators as our leaders have slowly, and unlawfully seized the rights of the People.

Soon the truth will be known to all.

The day quickly approaches when we will be forced to act on these truths. If we fail to act, we will lose forever this chapter in human history when We The People reigned sovereign, and our government was bound by the chains of a written constitution.

INCOME TAX: THE MOST PERNICIOUS FORM OF TYRANNY

The most pernicious form of tyranny is that which disguises itself as a benefactor to its victims.

Most people believe that the income tax system is legal and that the revenue from the tax is used in the public interest.

However, there is a substantial, conclusive body of evidence that proves that our income tax system represents the most pernicious form of tyranny:

It is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated by government against the working men and women of America.

It is unconstitutional in its origin, and abusive in every aspect of its operation.

It uses intimidation, threat and coercion to deprive us of our lawfully acquired property.

It resorts to morally reprehensible conduct in a persistent effort to divide the American people and promote envy, greed and irresponsible behavior in our society.

The unlawful and unjust income tax system produces nothing but sorrow, distress and calamity and division in our society.

It has been imposed on an unsuspecting people through deceptive and fraudulent means –outside of constitutional restraints;

Our income tax holds people in servitude as the chattel of others. It forces the people to labor to pay off a never ending and always growing national debt to a cartel of private banks.

The income tax is enforced as though payment was compulsory when, in fact, it is voluntary.

For decades, a growing number of attorneys, CPAs, retired judges, former and present IRS officers, educators, experienced researchers, former and present congressmen, legislators, successful businesspeople and scores of ordinary, nonaligned citizens have been providing a substantial amount of extremely credible evidence that since 1913 the Judiciary has been cooperating with the Executive and Legislative branches in a collective attempt to deny the People their constitutionally protected rights and to deprive the People of a significant percentage of the fruits of their labor by unlawfully enforcing the IRS Code -- a code that has no basis in law -- no legal authority.

The evidence supports the now WIDELY HELD belief that:

It was no coincidence that the Federal Reserve System----a PRIVATELY OWNED banking cartel that is not controlled, or even audited by our government----and the income tax were both imposed on the American people in 1913.

The Federal Reserve System and the Internal Revenue Service were both created by the 16th Amendment to the United States Constitution. We will prove at this hearing that the 16th Amendment is a fraud. That it was not lawfully ratified by ¾ of the States in 1913. And that as creations of the 16th Amendment, the Federal Reserve System and the IRS are not legitimate, constitutional operations of our government.

The Federal Reserve System and the income tax are inextricably linked. The income tax was instituted to provide lender security and guaranteed profits to this highly secretive, privately owned and unaccountable central banking system that has obtained absolute control over our country and the federal government.

You will learn at this hearing that most of the revenue generated from the income tax is not used to run the government but is collected by the private Federal Reserve System as interest on the national debt---money that this corrupt money system creates out of thin air, and then loans to the federal government—in a fraudulent scheme that has kept the American people is a state of perpetual debt to these private bankers for three quarters of a century.

Since 1933, the privately owned Federal Reserve system has been granted the unconstitutional power to fabricate money out of thin air, charge interest to the government for the use of the Fed’s fabricated money and to receive taxes to pay that interest, paid with the American people’s labor. Today, the average American family pays more in taxes than it does for housing, food and clothing combined.

Is there any question that indentured servitude is alive and well in America?

By the end of this hearing you will KNOW that American citizens are compelled by the government to perform labor in order to pay off the government’s debt to the PRIVATE banking cartel---and that most Americans are in a condition of continual, economic slavery to the federal government and the privately owned Federal Reserve System (in violation of our rights guaranteed by the 13th Amendment).

The evidence will also show that our system of income tax collection has led to widespread and unjustifiable abuse of the People’s unalienable due process rights. Among the significant wrongs committed by our government to perpetuate this fraud include:

The unlawful indictment, prosecution and imprisonment of law-abiding Citizens who dare question the government’s legal authority to collect this tax.

The unlawful seizures of property, wages, bank accounts --- all without court orders or proper warrants to satisfy supposed tax debts that, in fact, have no basis in law

The pervasive and systemic denial of due process rights and other constitutional protections in the daily administrative operations of the IRS

The collusion of the Courts in perpetuating the unlawful tax system by their failure to directly rule on proper legal challenges to our laws and the tacit approval of legal abuse by DOJ and the IRS against the People

A system of tax regulations and legal definitions so complex and ambiguous that it conveniently defies comprehension and successful legal challenges.

PETITION FOR REDRESS REGARDING THE INCOME TAX

People like Joseph R. Banister, William Benson, William Conklin, Irwin Schiff, Nick Jesson, Joe Farah, Larry Becraft, Jeff Dickstein and scores of other credentialed professionals have for years, been researching the issues and petitioning the government for a Redress of Grievances regarding the apparently fraudulent jurisdiction of the Internal Revenue Service and the illegal operations of the nation’s income tax system.

In response, the government has been using those petitions as grounds for abuse, sanctions, persecution, prosecution and incarceration.

IRS special agent Joe Banister completed his 95-page research report in February of 1999, and submitted it to his superiors in the San Jose office of the IRS with a respectful request that it be passed up the chain of command to the IRS Commissioner. Joe was merely asking for a response to his conclusions that there is no statute compelling citizens to file and pay income or social security taxes and that the 16th Amendment was not legally ratified.

Instead of responding to the evidence and conclusions, Mr. Banister's superiors forced Joe to resign.

Attorneys Becraft and Dickstein have been sanctioned by the courts for raising questions about the validity of the income tax system

Researchers Benson, Schiff and others have been incarcerated because they asked the government to show them the law that gives the government the constitutional and statutory authority to impose an income tax on the people.

Scores of well-intentioned citizens have researched the issues and attempted to raise their questions about the legal authority of the IRS. They have acted professionally and respectfully. Nonetheless, they too have been persecuted for not worshiping and paying homage to the nation’s new ruler – its federal monetary system.

A growing number of people have become familiar with the facts contained in these research reports and now believe that the IRS has no legal authority to force employers to withhold the tax from the paychecks of their employees and no legal authority to force most citizens to file an income tax return or to pay an income tax.

Yet, a growing number of people are losing their homes, going to prison and otherwise being subjected to financial penalties and emotional stress for either falling behind on their payments or legitimately deciding that they do not have to pay.

The Executive, Legislative and the Judicial branches of our government continue to enforce the income tax law which they KNOW, without doubt, is unconstitutional and totally repugnant to our founding principles.

Obviously, the current situation cannot be allowed to continue. The People need to get to the truth of the matter.

In 1999, the We The People Foundation for Constitutional Education became aware of the issues being raised about the income tax system, and the government’s reprehensible behavior.

We sponsored a symposium at the National Press Club here in Washington on July 1st and 2nd, 1999. We selected the National Press Club for three reasons:

The symposium would be closer to the headquarters of the IRS and other offices of the Executive, to the Congress and to the Supreme Court, thereby facilitating and maximizing the potential of their participation in the symposium.

Washington is the media capital of the world and this issue needed media attention. The implications of the conclusions of the research by Messrs. Banister, Benson and Conklin, et al., are profound and of enormous national and international interest.

Dozens of national policy research "think tanks" are located in the greater Washington area -- organizations that have a need to know about the potential of a near-term demise of the federal income and social security taxes. The facts, conclusions and methodology of the research by Messrs. Banister, Benson, Conklin, and others, would be of intense interest to them.

The symposium would be closer to the House of Representatives and the Senate, thereby making it possible for members of Congress to hear the "accusers" and the administration’s response to the allegations, and to offer their comments, particularly with respect to alternatives.

We respectfully requested the duly elected heads of the Executive and Legislative branches to identify the people with the best legal minds to argue against the conclusions of the tax researchers and have those people participate in the symposium.

More specifically, we requested that their representatives provide certain definite evidence on the above points, including: (1) documentation that the 16th Amendment was properly and legally ratified; (2) a copy of any law that compels citizens to file and pay federal income and social security taxes; and (3) an official, clear, and unambiguous explanation as to how one can file a federal income tax return without waiving one’s 5th Amendment rights.

The government did not acknowledge receipt of the invitations. However, the symposium was covered by C-SPAN.

Joseph R. Banister, William Benson, William Conklin and Larry Becraft presented the results of their research in support of three key conclusions they had reached:
 

1. The 16th Amendment has, in fact, not been approved by ¾ of the State Legislatures,

2. There is no federal statute that requires individual citizens of the 50 states to file and pay a federal income tax or a federal social security tax.

3. That by filing a federal income tax form 1040, American citizens waive their 5th Amendment rights.
 

We are now in a Constitutional Crisis.

TODAY’S TRUTH-IN-TAXATION HEARING

The hearing today is but another step in the People’s determination to get to the truth regarding the fraudulent jurisdiction of the Federal Reserve System and the Internal Revenue Service and the illegal operations of the nation’s income tax system.

Our purpose today is to have expert witnesses answer, under oath, various questions about the legal authority of the IRS to force employers to withhold any income tax from the paychecks of their employees and the legal authority of the IRS to force most American citizens to file a tax return and to pay the income tax.

Our objective is to establish a factual record, to be used by the People as justification for their future actions to eliminate this unlawful system of taxation in our country.

We had hoped to have hostile witness from the DOJ and the IRS. However, they ARROGANTLY REFUSED to appear before We The People to answer the questions.

So, instead we will have our witnesses answer the questions the government witnesses chose not to answer.

The witnesses are credible, educated experts who have first hand knowledge of the abuses the American people are suffering at the hand of our government. Our expert witnesses are attorneys, CPAs, professional tax researchers and ex-IRS agents.

The questions have all been prepared as statements of fact, to be admitted or denied, with evidence.

The main agenda for the inquiry is as follows:
(agenda overview)

We also would appreciate your continued attention to remaining respectful of the proceedings and to the schedule.

IN CLOSING,

The American People deserve – have a RIGHT – to a government that operates within the bounds of the law as defined by our Constitution.

The American People deserve – have a RIGHT – to a tax system that does not violate the Peoples’ unalienable rights to life, liberty and property.

The American People deserve – have a RIGHT – to a tax system that is Constitutional.

The American People deserve – have a RIGHT – to be ANSWERED by our government:

Show us the law.

Show us your authority.

Show us where we are liable for this tax.

Answer our questions.

The government has been invited repeatedly to confront this research.
At each turn, they have run from the truth.

Today, the evidence is brought before the People for their judgment.

We hope you enjoy learning the REAL details of our tax laws and how the “system” REALLY works behind the “curtain”.

We hope you consider the broad implications for our Nation as each line of inquiry fully unfolds.

We trust you will find the evidence startling, compelling, disturbing and irrefutable.

We further hope you consider what these truths mean to each of you as peaceful and law-abiding Citizens.

We hope you spread news of this crisis across our Nation, share this evidence with your friends and countrymen and join us in our demand to restore the order of Constitutional law to our nation.

At the end of our second day of testimony, I will outline additional steps that this Foundation will now undertake to secure our freedoms and our Republic once again.

We pray you search your hearts and your souls to find the strength, courage and commitment to learn the facts, judge the truth and join us in this righteous and necessary cause.

Thank you.

Bob Schulz, Chairman
We The People Foundation for Constitutional Education, Inc.
Note: These comments were presented at the Opening of the Citizens' Truth-In-Taxation Hearing.
Washington D.C., February 27-28, 2002



TOPICS: Government; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: taxreform
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To: Judith Anne

Maybe you could just have a topic room or something regarding tax law, so that people who really want to read a book on it, could do so.

Sorry that simply does not answer the particular need of these Tax Resistance threads or have you not noticed.

The arguments offered by these source articles are hardly the "Truth-In-Taxation" they would pretend to.

There are enough unsubstantiated and bogus statemendt offered by the authors of these articles that substantive counter-point back up by the record is obligatory. Nothing less well do as anything else is same mere personal opinion and distorted information that the articles are pushing.

You will find I am more than willing to "discuss" and express personal opinion when such is appropriate and due, but where outright fabrications and prevarication is rampant, one does not rely on the expression of mere personal opinion to rebut.

41 posted on 03/06/2002 1:42:25 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
Okay. Then I'll keep passing them up. I'm sure it's my loss, but just can't wade through. No offense was meant, please pardon my intrusion.
42 posted on 03/06/2002 1:46:51 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Judith Anne

Maybe you could have a FR place,

It's been done, the bull continues to crop up however.

That is only 5 of more than a hundred current and accessable threads on Tax Protest Arguments and community.

43 posted on 03/06/2002 1:49:51 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
Have you filed, yet?
44 posted on 03/06/2002 1:53:09 AM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Judith Anne
PS.

There are over 600 threads available on tax reform. With continuous debate, as well as repeated bad information that needs to be address whenever it crops up.

You have to realise that the structure of FR is not one ammenable to chat or discussion in the normal terms. Each thread tends to be its own discrete entity independant of others related to it. Because of the high volume of new readers what has been written in the past is not carried forward to those who need to be exposed to all sides of the issues of an article. Not just one uncontested view.

45 posted on 03/06/2002 1:59:23 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
I notice the titles, and they're interesting... Tax Protesters' Arguments totally debunked, huh? Wow...I like O'Neill's point that the tax system is beyond unwieldy, and has become ridiculous...I think we need to throw the old Code out, totally, go with something SIMPLE and new...especially since not even the employees of the IRS can properly explain it. I'm sure that's too simplistic for you, but frankly, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
46 posted on 03/06/2002 1:59:44 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Buckeroo
No, and I won't until midnight of the date taxes I may owe are due.

But then they manage to collect over 40% in federal taxes through my purchases whether I file or not. Filing is just the governments way to con one into doing their accounting for them. The taxes are paid inevitably through prices of goods and services. It's too bad we don't get a receipt for that end of things. Welfare mothers would be on the streets in revolt at the first sight of the real tax bill they pay.

47 posted on 03/06/2002 2:06:28 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: Judith Anne

I think we need to throw the old Code out, totally, go with something SIMPLE and new...

So do I. It is long past time to end the Income Tax once and for all and get rid of the intrusive anal exam of family finances by government. I support:

H.R.2525
SPONSOR: Rep Linder, John (introduced 07/17/2001)
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
Refer:
http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org

Unfortunately, as has been expressly stated by Schulz & Co. of the opening article of this thread in the past, that is not their agenda. They offer no solutions, only gripes. Infact they argue against achievable programs for tax reform that do exist.

48 posted on 03/06/2002 2:18:45 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
You wait for the last minute to file? Is this your way of petitioning the government about your grievances over taxes?
49 posted on 03/06/2002 2:23:52 AM PST by Buckeroo
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To: ancient_geezer
Maybe you know something about this:

Back when everyone was wondering what would happen with Y2K, I read a couple of articles about the IRS having to purchase a completely new computer system, agency-wide, and to transfer the data from the old computers to the new ones; the whole mess was expected to take over a decade, and the data to be transferred was not considered to be necessarily complete or accurate...

Since then, I haven't heard a thing...do you know anything about this?

Another thing I read this past week that I thought was interesting was the Russian (?) flat tax system of 17%, or something like that...of course, that doesn't address the issue of states, counties and municipalities piling on...

This stuff I find interesting...hope I'm not boring you. ;-D

50 posted on 03/06/2002 2:33:51 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Buckeroo
One of many, I hit Congress Critters and stir up the my neighbors and the county I live in as well. One attacks from many fronts.

I just disagree with the premise that taxes are inherently illegal. I know they are. That, however, doesn't mean I agree with the tax system as it exists or the size of government.

Just mean I am clearly intune with the risks I may be exposed to and accept such knowingly, with the full knowledge that if I were to violate statute, there is no recourse available in the court.

That my friend is called responsible Civil Disobediance. I live under no illusions, nor do I allow friends to walk blindly into the brick wall of the judicial system with blinders on as Schulz & Co. do in recruiting their cannon fodder and guinea pigs.

51 posted on 03/06/2002 2:35:02 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
"I just disagree with the premise that taxes are inherently illegal. I know they are. " -- ancient_geezer

I think taxes are the only form of payment for continuing government operations. I don't think taxes are inherently wrong or illegal in any sense, particularly within our republic.

Bob Schulz brings to the table of discussion some refreshing ideas that are far from radical. He brings supportive evidence about how the government has created methods of taxation beyond our individual capabilities within the republic to control and sustain. That these methods are outside of the Constitution control is important; I believe that the 16th amendment was improperly certified.

But despite our individual differences about this, I want to point out to you that there is a large difference between our respective opinions concerning methods of challenging the government.

You wait until the last minute to challenge authority; I rip it's throat out, as soon as I see can. I don't believe in government, any government; I believe in individual values and capabilities that created the greatest nation upon this Earth.

52 posted on 03/06/2002 2:51:46 AM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Judith Anne

Since then, I haven't heard a thing...do you know anything about this?

Nothing substantial. I do know they have not been succesful in implementing those systems and have run into severe problems.

Another thing I read this past week that I thought was interesting was the Russian (?) flat tax system of 17%, or something like that...

See Russia's single-rate tax my Reply #23

Covers the details of that so-called flat tax. All proposals for flat taxes in this country and Russia have been income tax/ VAT combinations similar to the European Australian and Canadian way of taxing. Mostly its done through hidden business taxes buried under inflation in the price of goods and services. There is no receipt of the amount of tax to the customer, it's just embedded in the price by collecting the tax directly from all levels business production instead of from individuals as they make their purchases.

That way there's nothing to upset the voter except they get mad at businesses for the higher prices instead of government who is responsible. That's what "soak the rich" actually means.

53 posted on 03/06/2002 2:54:17 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
Thanks for your replies. I think I heard also that the IRS farmed out some work to a private contractor...I do believe the dang thing might collapse under its own weight...wonder what the Agency costs the US taxpayer, to run? Something that inefficient and illogical can't be a bargain...have they accounted for all their expenditures to the GAO? Do they even know what all their expenditures are? Do we?

Any politician who REALLY ran a national campaign on GENUINE tax reform would sure clean up. Folks are sick of the mess...

54 posted on 03/06/2002 3:03:22 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Buckeroo

the government has created methods of taxation beyond our individual capabilities within the republic to control and sustain.

Baloney, the reason it is beyond our individual control is because we are a representative form of government and a Republic. The current tax structure is designed to mislead the majority of people into believing they pay little or no tax and their by create and maintain a constituency for spending and growth of government.

If you look at each of Schulz & company's arguments they all are premised on the idea of illegality or an invalid 16th amendment.

Just doesn't fly. The income tax is a tax on commercial activity, the amount of which is determined by the value of the exchange of product, service or labor for consideration.

With exception of rent paid to land owners, and dividends/interest from financial instuments, the income tax totally and completely falls within the parameters of Article I Section 8 of the constituion. Schulz & Co. are full of it, even if they could sustain invalidity of the 16th.

Secondly you would find that every amendment to the consitution pre electronic copy capability, has the same typographical and transcription errors that he bases his arguments on. You can expect to throw out the bill of rights and everything upto the more recent amendments of the last 50yrs on the same theories.

Bye Bye 2nd amendment and a bunch of others that are the only words in the Constitution holding back the dike from a flood of socialism.

I don't believe in government, any government;

I know, that however is not the Constitutional Republic we live in or that the founders of this nation established.

That is anarchy, one step from tyranny and that is where you and I are on opposing ends of the gun.

55 posted on 03/06/2002 3:10:49 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: Judith Anne
wonder what the Agency costs the US taxpayer, to run?

Appropriations of $8-9 billion per year officially, and doesn't count the cost of litigation or enforcement by the DOJ and courts. Nor does it count the burden laid on the individual and business. That cost is between $0.65 and a $1.00 for ever dollar collected in tax.

Something that inefficient and illogical can't be a bargain...

It ain't.

 

Where Have All the Dollars Gone?
How the government robs Peter to pay him back.
By James L. Payne, Reason Magazine February '94

When the overhead costs are added together, (24 percent compliance costs, 33 percent disincentive costs, and 8 percent other costs), they total 65 percent of tax revenue. Although future studies may come up with slightly different numbers, there is no doubt that the overhead costs of taxation are substantial. This means that every act of self-subsidy entails a significant waste. When the government takes a dollar from Peter to give it back to him later, there is a huge loss attached to the transaction.

Unfortunately, the bad news doesn't end there. Peter is never going to see this dollar, even if it is destined for him, because of the waste in the system for disbursing subsidies."


have they accounted for all their expenditures to the GAO? Do they even know what all their expenditures are? Do we?

In one word, NO! They fail GAO audits everytime they are hit with one, and cannot account for many billions of dollars spent.

56 posted on 03/06/2002 3:19:27 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
Well, now you know why I'm interested in tax threads, and why I'm (quietly) screaming angry about the IRS.

I do believe that if a few, very few, simple points about the agency were common knowledge, something would BY GOD be done.

57 posted on 03/06/2002 3:24:48 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Judith Anne

Any politician who REALLY ran a national campaign on GENUINE tax reform would sure clean up. Folks are sick of the mess...

You would think so. Unfortunately, most people do not perceive the mess, and that is the problem.

As far as a politician running a campaign to clean up? Look at Alan Keyes, to find the fallacy in that statement.

Right now the bottom 60% of earners perceive little to no "Individual Income Tax" burden,(in many cases even a handout) and 70% of the public continues to clamor for more from government looking for the top 40% to pay for. That perception continues to grow ever stronger by eliminating even more participants from the Individual Income Tax rolls through current tax reduction and simplification proposals by personal exemption limits and other mechanisms such as the EITC.

Until all perceive the burden of government in their lives through participation in the tax system, there will be no reduction in the size of government.

Walter Williams hits it on the nose:

 

Walter Williams, World Net Daily, 10-25-2000

According to the most recent U.S. Treasury Department figures, in 1997 the top 1 percent of income-earners (those with income of $250,000 and higher) paid 33 percent of all federal income taxes. The top 5 percent of income-earners ($108,000 and over) paid 52 percent, and the top 50 percent ($36,000 and over) paid 96 percent of income taxes. Guess what the bottom 50 percent of income earners paid?

If you're among those who pay little or no federal income taxes, what do you care about tax cuts? Moreover, if you think tax cuts pose a threat to government handout programs, you might be openly hostile and support Al Gore's silly "risky scheme" talk. So many Americans paying little or no federal taxes makes for a natural spending constituency. It's like me in the restaurant: What do I care about extravagance if you're footing the bill?


A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
-George Bernard Shaw


58 posted on 03/06/2002 3:29:52 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
AG, I've enjoyed our exchange. Thank you for taking the time. I'll look forward to next time.
59 posted on 03/06/2002 3:33:52 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Judith Anne
You're very welcome fair lady.

A. Geezer

60 posted on 03/06/2002 3:36:07 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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