Posted on 03/04/2002 2:19:12 PM PST by Dementon
Maybe you could just have a topic room or something regarding tax law, so that people who really want to read a book on it, could do so.
Sorry that simply does not answer the particular need of these Tax Resistance threads or have you not noticed.
The arguments offered by these source articles are hardly the "Truth-In-Taxation" they would pretend to.
There are enough unsubstantiated and bogus statemendt offered by the authors of these articles that substantive counter-point back up by the record is obligatory. Nothing less well do as anything else is same mere personal opinion and distorted information that the articles are pushing.
You will find I am more than willing to "discuss" and express personal opinion when such is appropriate and due, but where outright fabrications and prevarication is rampant, one does not rely on the expression of mere personal opinion to rebut.
Maybe you could have a FR place,
It's been done, the bull continues to crop up however.
That is only 5 of more than a hundred current and accessable threads on Tax Protest Arguments and community.
There are over 600 threads available on tax reform. With continuous debate, as well as repeated bad information that needs to be address whenever it crops up.
You have to realise that the structure of FR is not one ammenable to chat or discussion in the normal terms. Each thread tends to be its own discrete entity independant of others related to it. Because of the high volume of new readers what has been written in the past is not carried forward to those who need to be exposed to all sides of the issues of an article. Not just one uncontested view.
But then they manage to collect over 40% in federal taxes through my purchases whether I file or not. Filing is just the governments way to con one into doing their accounting for them. The taxes are paid inevitably through prices of goods and services. It's too bad we don't get a receipt for that end of things. Welfare mothers would be on the streets in revolt at the first sight of the real tax bill they pay.
I think we need to throw the old Code out, totally, go with something SIMPLE and new...
So do I. It is long past time to end the Income Tax once and for all and get rid of the intrusive anal exam of family finances by government. I support:
H.R.2525
SPONSOR: Rep Linder, John (introduced 07/17/2001)
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
Refer: http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org
Unfortunately, as has been expressly stated by Schulz & Co. of the opening article of this thread in the past, that is not their agenda. They offer no solutions, only gripes. Infact they argue against achievable programs for tax reform that do exist.
Back when everyone was wondering what would happen with Y2K, I read a couple of articles about the IRS having to purchase a completely new computer system, agency-wide, and to transfer the data from the old computers to the new ones; the whole mess was expected to take over a decade, and the data to be transferred was not considered to be necessarily complete or accurate...
Since then, I haven't heard a thing...do you know anything about this?
Another thing I read this past week that I thought was interesting was the Russian (?) flat tax system of 17%, or something like that...of course, that doesn't address the issue of states, counties and municipalities piling on...
This stuff I find interesting...hope I'm not boring you. ;-D
I just disagree with the premise that taxes are inherently illegal. I know they are. That, however, doesn't mean I agree with the tax system as it exists or the size of government.
Just mean I am clearly intune with the risks I may be exposed to and accept such knowingly, with the full knowledge that if I were to violate statute, there is no recourse available in the court.
That my friend is called responsible Civil Disobediance. I live under no illusions, nor do I allow friends to walk blindly into the brick wall of the judicial system with blinders on as Schulz & Co. do in recruiting their cannon fodder and guinea pigs.
I think taxes are the only form of payment for continuing government operations. I don't think taxes are inherently wrong or illegal in any sense, particularly within our republic.
Bob Schulz brings to the table of discussion some refreshing ideas that are far from radical. He brings supportive evidence about how the government has created methods of taxation beyond our individual capabilities within the republic to control and sustain. That these methods are outside of the Constitution control is important; I believe that the 16th amendment was improperly certified.
But despite our individual differences about this, I want to point out to you that there is a large difference between our respective opinions concerning methods of challenging the government.
You wait until the last minute to challenge authority; I rip it's throat out, as soon as I see can. I don't believe in government, any government; I believe in individual values and capabilities that created the greatest nation upon this Earth.
Since then, I haven't heard a thing...do you know anything about this?
Nothing substantial. I do know they have not been succesful in implementing those systems and have run into severe problems.
Another thing I read this past week that I thought was interesting was the Russian (?) flat tax system of 17%, or something like that...
See Russia's single-rate tax my Reply #23
Covers the details of that so-called flat tax. All proposals for flat taxes in this country and Russia have been income tax/ VAT combinations similar to the European Australian and Canadian way of taxing. Mostly its done through hidden business taxes buried under inflation in the price of goods and services. There is no receipt of the amount of tax to the customer, it's just embedded in the price by collecting the tax directly from all levels business production instead of from individuals as they make their purchases.
That way there's nothing to upset the voter except they get mad at businesses for the higher prices instead of government who is responsible. That's what "soak the rich" actually means.
Any politician who REALLY ran a national campaign on GENUINE tax reform would sure clean up. Folks are sick of the mess...
the government has created methods of taxation beyond our individual capabilities within the republic to control and sustain.
Baloney, the reason it is beyond our individual control is because we are a representative form of government and a Republic. The current tax structure is designed to mislead the majority of people into believing they pay little or no tax and their by create and maintain a constituency for spending and growth of government.
If you look at each of Schulz & company's arguments they all are premised on the idea of illegality or an invalid 16th amendment.
Just doesn't fly. The income tax is a tax on commercial activity, the amount of which is determined by the value of the exchange of product, service or labor for consideration.
With exception of rent paid to land owners, and dividends/interest from financial instuments, the income tax totally and completely falls within the parameters of Article I Section 8 of the constituion. Schulz & Co. are full of it, even if they could sustain invalidity of the 16th.
Secondly you would find that every amendment to the consitution pre electronic copy capability, has the same typographical and transcription errors that he bases his arguments on. You can expect to throw out the bill of rights and everything upto the more recent amendments of the last 50yrs on the same theories.
Bye Bye 2nd amendment and a bunch of others that are the only words in the Constitution holding back the dike from a flood of socialism.
I don't believe in government, any government;
I know, that however is not the Constitutional Republic we live in or that the founders of this nation established.
That is anarchy, one step from tyranny and that is where you and I are on opposing ends of the gun.
Appropriations of $8-9 billion per year officially, and doesn't count the cost of litigation or enforcement by the DOJ and courts. Nor does it count the burden laid on the individual and business. That cost is between $0.65 and a $1.00 for ever dollar collected in tax.
Something that inefficient and illogical can't be a bargain...
It ain't.
Where Have All the Dollars Gone?
How the government robs Peter to pay him back.
By James L. Payne, Reason Magazine February '94
When the overhead costs are added together, (24 percent compliance costs, 33 percent disincentive costs, and 8 percent other costs), they total 65 percent of tax revenue. Although future studies may come up with slightly different numbers, there is no doubt that the overhead costs of taxation are substantial. This means that every act of self-subsidy entails a significant waste. When the government takes a dollar from Peter to give it back to him later, there is a huge loss attached to the transaction.
Unfortunately, the bad news doesn't end there. Peter is never going to see this dollar, even if it is destined for him, because of the waste in the system for disbursing subsidies."
have they accounted for all their expenditures to the GAO? Do they even know what all their expenditures are? Do we?
In one word, NO! They fail GAO audits everytime they are hit with one, and cannot account for many billions of dollars spent.
I do believe that if a few, very few, simple points about the agency were common knowledge, something would BY GOD be done.
Any politician who REALLY ran a national campaign on GENUINE tax reform would sure clean up. Folks are sick of the mess...
You would think so. Unfortunately, most people do not perceive the mess, and that is the problem.
As far as a politician running a campaign to clean up? Look at Alan Keyes, to find the fallacy in that statement.
Right now the bottom 60% of earners perceive little to no "Individual Income Tax" burden,(in many cases even a handout) and 70% of the public continues to clamor for more from government looking for the top 40% to pay for. That perception continues to grow ever stronger by eliminating even more participants from the Individual Income Tax rolls through current tax reduction and simplification proposals by personal exemption limits and other mechanisms such as the EITC.
Until all perceive the burden of government in their lives through participation in the tax system, there will be no reduction in the size of government.
Walter Williams hits it on the nose:
Walter Williams, World Net Daily, 10-25-2000
According to the most recent U.S. Treasury Department figures, in 1997 the top 1 percent of income-earners (those with income of $250,000 and higher) paid 33 percent of all federal income taxes. The top 5 percent of income-earners ($108,000 and over) paid 52 percent, and the top 50 percent ($36,000 and over) paid 96 percent of income taxes. Guess what the bottom 50 percent of income earners paid?
If you're among those who pay little or no federal income taxes, what do you care about tax cuts? Moreover, if you think tax cuts pose a threat to government handout programs, you might be openly hostile and support Al Gore's silly "risky scheme" talk. So many Americans paying little or no federal taxes makes for a natural spending constituency. It's like me in the restaurant: What do I care about extravagance if you're footing the bill?
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
-George Bernard Shaw
A. Geezer
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