The false dilemma behind the Bush Amnesty

January 17th, 2004 | Sabertooth

[Southack]

"The Act specifically provides for a non-judicially-ordered exercise of home invasion and search by letter, and also extends this privilege to search of bank, pawnshop, S&L, hotel, and credit/debit card activity. No judge, just a letter requesting the searches pursuant to a "national security" item. Yes, there is no Sneak and Peek. Yes, there is no Judicial Review."

The words "sneak and peek" do not appear in the Patriot Act. Likewise, a warrant is still required by Patriot Act searches.

But why bother posting to me? It's not like you are going to read my posts any more than the Patriot Act itself, something that you've obviously not read on your own. Just go on spouting your conspiracy theories as if you were trolling for fellow suckers who likewise don't have the mental discipline to go read first sources on their own.

[MattAMiller]

I don't think anybody expects that simply giving current legal residents legal status will solve anything. But as long as you're going to have a guest worker program I don't see what you'd hope to accompish by forcing everybody here now to simply go back home and apply.

[4Freedom]

A Republican Congress would do the "Right" thing where Dean or Clark were concerned, Bush is taking the whole party to the "Left".

Compare the present party platform to those of the recent past.

[Admin Moderator]

Knock off the personal attacks.

[Sabertooth]

Indeed. I've missed it. I don't see why *other* illegals will go home on their own based simply on their peers being forceably deported. To me that looks like scoring an own goal. Besides, your initial point in your opening editorial for this thread was to convince illegals to go home voluntarily, something that I have a difficult time reconciling with forced deportations.

It works because enforcement of the law against a few begets compliance with the law among the many. It's the same logic as three strikes laws.

Look at the thread about the Pakistani Illegals in my tagline. Self-deportation works.

Also, your phrase "based simply on their peers being forceably deported" is wildly inaccurate. I have a number of proposals in addition to deportations to encourage Illegals to self-deport in the "Eighteen Illegal Aliens Solutions" link in the essay at the top of this thread.

[judgeandjury]

Hey, that sounds great, but too bad that real, actual employers know full well that *turnover* and new training for employees, especially for "unskilled" jobs, is a business killer.

New training for employees, especially for "unskilled" jobs, is a business killer? How much "training" does it take to show somebody how to remove dirty dishes from a table in a restaurant, or make a bed in a hotel, or pick a head of lettuce, or flip a hamburger at McDonald's? 5 minutes, perhaps?

[ninenot]

But the use of the phrase "has an end" was specifically to void the argument that there is NO practical end to the 'blue card' authorization.

In other words, it was a verbal sleight-of-hand/deception.

[Sabertooth]

C'mon, relax.

Southack's stubborn, but fair.

[janetgreen]

The illegals have too many reasons to stay here, i.e., free medical care, free schooling, welfare, food stamps, assisted housing, free breakfasts and lunches for the kids, etc. etc. etc. They won't go home. This plan will only encourage millions more to come, all for the freebies paid for by us. Bringing a pregnant woman in means taxpayer assistance for the life of that child.

All these freebies SHOULD NOT be available to illegal aliens, and an anchor baby SHOULD NOT be an American citizen. America simply cannot afford it, something George Bush has not addressed.

[ninenot]

I bow to the PH.D. flame-baiter, evidenced by #119.

But I'm smart enough to keep reading your posts to learn more about flaming technique.

[judgeandjury]

Uh huh. As if the daily images of rounding up 1 million American business owners in addition to the images of 8 million starving illegal aliens would be any more popular than showing 6 million starving Jews in NAZI concentration camps.

You have quite a surreal imagination.

[AzJohn]

Legalizing without prior vetting provides an incentive for more illegals to come before the cut off

That was the problem with the 1986 amnesty, wasn't it? Perhaps this time, whatever we end up adopting, it will work somewhat better if the process is closely tied to employment. Certainly this is a problem that needs to be considered.

I don't totally disagree with those who say they should go back to their home country and apply. My fear, however, is that would be a dealbreaker for U.S. employers. IMO, it would be better to compromise on that part of it.

[reluctantwarrior]

If you fast track the visa apps of people using the system now in place with a job in the US then many will self deport once the word gets out. So I think you can have the vetting and registration and also allow most aliens to come back and work and have them pay for the deportation costs themselves.

[PSYCHO-FREEP]

The illegals will come regardless. Most of them will refuse to register. They'll take the easy way in as usual.

Our borders are also so vast and difficult to enforce, there is little that can be done.

It's easy for the "Armchair Quarterbacks" on this forum to spew all the criticisms and solutions but they all only measure up to hot air, for all the good it will do.

Any action, including the President's is worth a try. But any positive effort as well as idea, implemented in a joint effort is better than doing nothing.

Fences, military patrols, etc... have proven ineffective. The Berlin wall, a picket fence in comparison to what would be needed to stop the flow, was proven ineffective. Since it came down, Germany has prospered greatly. (just one small lesson from history)

[Southack]

"It works because enforcement of the law against a few begets compliance with the law among the many. It's the same logic as three strikes laws."

I understand the logic of the 3 strikes laws, no problem, but I'm not really seeing how that logic extends to illegals...such that those illegals who haven't yet been caught suddenly go home anyway...just because they've seen some of their peers get deported by stepped up enforcement of our existing laws.

[Marine Inspector]

Since this is your line of work let me ask you: do you think that it is impossible to provide legal status to most of the illegals currently here and still have a workable plan?

It's not impossible, it's just wrong.

Is it possible to combine President Bush's principles with some combination of future incentives or enforcement, or does legalizing so many doom any proposal like this to failure?

IMO, legalizing any illegal currently here is wrong and sends the wrong message.

It has been proven time and time again, that legalizing illegal aliens encourages more illegal immigration.

IMO, a guest worker program is feasible if properly implemented.

There are currently 10+ million illegal aliens here in the US. There are currently 20+ million aliens out there in the world that are currently waiting in line to come to live and work in the US. Those 20+ million have never broken our laws. Why not let them have these so called jobs that Americans will not do?

Why reward criminal aliens and punish law-abiding aliens?

Marine Inspector

[PSYCHO-FREEP]

I'm ignoring you.....

Have a nice day!

[Marine Inspector]

Know all, see all, don't need proof, you opinion is all of that.

No, I don't know all and see all, and I never stated that my opinion is all of that.

Let me ask you a question. How long have you been working in the field of immigration, specifically illegal immigration?

Another question, if I may. What has Bush done to curtail illegal immigration?

Marine Inspector

[judgeandjury]

I don't see why *other* illegals will go home on their own based simply on their peers being forceably deported.

Operation Wetback, which was carried out in 1954, accomplished this very successfully. Once illegal aliens began to be rounded up by American authorities, large numbers of illegal aliens started to leave the U.S. voluntarily. In fact, of all the illegal aliens that were forced to return to Mexico in 1954, the majority of them went back voluntarily.

[Southack]

"Another question, if I may. What has Bush done to curtail illegal immigration?"

For employers like me, Bush gave us a much needed tool.

President Bush signed the workplace verification bill to prevent hiring of illegal Aliens
S. 1685, the Basic Pilot Extension Act of 2003, was signed by President Bush on December 3, 2003.
It extends for five years the workplace employment eligibility authorization pilot programs created in 1996. It expands the pilot programs from the original five states to all 50 states.