NH: Seized by the Manchester Police for Open Carry (vanity)

self | March 29, 2004 | Michael Pelletier

[mvpel]

Thanks everyone, for your comments!

I've retained firearms attorney Penny S. Dean, up in Concord, for some assistance in obtaining the 911 call records - apparently they need to see legal letterhead before they will save them from their scheduled destruction 25 days hence, and a subpoena for copies of them.

I've been taking a sound beating over on The High Road thread for my Condition White screwup, and it's a well-deserved one. If I wanted to get absorbed in a book, I should have had my butt in a chair or my back to the wall, or have kept my jacket on. I won't be forgetting that lesson anytime soon. I'll probably also take a retention course at some point in the near future.

The letter was delivered to Capt. Mara and the officers involved in the response on Wednesday, March 31, and I have yet to hear back from any of them. We figure we'll give them a reasonable amount of time to respond, and then fire off a few more letters if necessary.

The letter is planned for publication in the next issue of the GO-NH (Gun Owners of New Hampshire) newsletter, and I have sent copies of it to Mark Steyn, Vin Suprynowicz, and the Manchester Union Leader, among others.

I'm also planning a copy to the chair of the Public Safety Committee up in Concord, as the opponents to the SB454 concealed carry reform bill unanimously claimed - as part of their opposition to the bill - that open carry is legal and "no problem."

I'm looking into forming a legal fund, as I've had several people inquire about it. I'll keep folks posted as the situation develops.

[george wythe]

I enjoyed reading your post, especially your rational, measured complaint.

You will succeed in changing some minds at the police department, since you don't come across as a habitual complainer or a whiner.

After all, the "us" versus "them" mentality does not help anyone; the extremists on both sides create unnecessary friction between the citizenry and the police.

[Slings and Arrows]

The R. King event was not racially motivated. The nightstick response was motivated by King's vicious wacked out behavior. The defense failed to counter the rat prosecutor's BS. Race didn't matter. They'd have pounded anyone that led them on a 100 MPH chase and refused to stop fighting.

This topic is explored in detail in Chris Rock's magnum opus How To NOT Get Your A** Kicked By the Police. [WARNING: Strong (and hilarious!) language.]

[Hat-Trick]

Awesome letter, Michael. If possible, please post his response. Freegards,

Hat-Trick

[Hat-Trick]

"Some of them also seem to simply want to remain an "exclusive club" of selected, superior armed citizen. "

Most of them, and most all of their chiefs and sheriffs, would just as soon have us unarmed and dependent on them for our personal safety - you know - just dial 911.

[herewego]

The good news is you'll never make the same mistake twice.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

That is one great letter! Keep us updated.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

The saying "We don't care how you do it up North" applies to your Masshole friends. Try living in Florida...

[wardaddy]

Good Luck!

[W Clark]

Michael,
It has been a long time. First I am glad to see that you are OK. 2nd your account of these officers made my blood boil. What do they think we carry for?, because it's fashionable? I'd like to see how many of them, while they are off duty go unarmed?. It makes me want to amend the statute I wrote about 3 years ago allowing all LEO's the ability to carry whether on or off duty in Utah.

[Chip_Douglas]

Good luck with everything bro! Live free or die!!!

[Badray]

Saturday afternoon bump.

Good luck Michael.

[stenguns]

Hi Mike,

I read your story and your letter to the police was well written. I would like to be somewhat critical of you anyway at the risk of being eternally flamed by others on this discussion group.

First Point: As a gun owner, you are ALWAYS responsible to know where your gun is at all times and to safeguard it from being taken from you. You failed in this regard in allowing your gun to be accessable to anyone who cared to come up behind you and relieve you of your pistol. You exersized poor judgent in this regard and allowing yourself to "white out" over a cup of latte and a good knitting book. Personally I don't drink latte, I drink my coffee black.

Second point: You exersized poor judgement in allowing your pistol to be not concealed. Just because you "can" do something does not mean it is a good idea to do it. Generally speaking, exposed sidearms are not socially acceptable in modern society unless you are in some form of law enforcement capacity or are an armed security guard. Some milk-toast democrat from Massachusetts saw your gun and skid-marked his BVD's at the mere sight of a gun and got on his yuppie cell phone to call the cops. The situation was avoidable and was forseeable. You should have known better.

In the same way that you are always responsible to know where the fenders of your car are in relation to the rest of the world, doubly so you are responsible for knowing where your pistol is at all times and safeguarding it. I hope you have learned a lesson.

As for the police, well that's another story. On one hand, they have no idea who the "good guy" is and who the "bad guy" is before they can investigate a situation. True, your situation could have been handled much better and you could have been simply approached and asked for your concealed carry permit while perhaps another officer was ready with his hand on his sidearm to take care of the situation should you prove to be a "bad guy". You may have a good case of police brutality regarding this. As for the "lecture" you got, well I've had it happen to me also. Under the circumstances, especially if the mood is "elevated", you may do yourself a favor and to just take the lecture and get on with it. I doubt if you can press charges for getting lectured no matter how left-winged and far-fetched the lecture was. Even pantywaist liberals have a right to speak. Unfortunately, some police do have that "elitist" view where the common unwashed have no business owning a firearm.

I'm from Connecticut where it is an offense to carry your handgun so it can be viewed. I do not necessarily agree with this law and think that if you would like to carry exposed you should be able to. While this may be a good idea legally, it is not socially acceptable and not likely to be in the forseeable future. This is going back to my point as to what you "can" do may not be in the best judgement. I don't forsee myself strutting into the nearest McDonalds with a .45 strapped to my side in a military flap holster.

This is my two cents worth on the situation. If it were me, I'd cool off and let the incident go. I'd expect a reply and apology from the police chief however for the poor way his officers handled the situation and how you were treated. If I got that much at least, I'd be happy and move on.

Be Free,
Vic Benson
New Milford, CT

[Copernicus]

the execution of a "felony stop" by the officers was at best a serious overreaction, and representative of bad judgement on their part.

Within limits, no real argument from me.

In any case this has been a very educational thread for me in two respects: I was unaware Jeff Cooper's definition of hoplophobia was archived at Brassroots and this is the first I've heard of "The Highroad.org".

I was also unaware "armed to the terror of the public" was not a universal concept.

I will follow your adventures with interest. By all means expose the mechanics of such an incident(911 tapes etc) as much as possible,we can all learn from such encounters.

As you or your lawyer are probably aware, there are provisions for personally suing LEO's who "act outside of statute" and it is possible you have a case for such relief.

It need not be excessively punitive, but certainly cautionary for the individuals involved. The detectives, for example, may need to rethink their impromptu seminars on the right of taxpayers to carry-open or concealed.

Best regards,

[Dallas239]

In Texas they have to be concealed and can be taken at any officers whim and you have to go to the station to get them back.

This is not correct. Unless you are arrested he has to give your gun back at the scene.

GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.

[StevenA]

< Here's to hoping you make it a sucessful case. I'm really tired of having to be "ashamed" to exercise my Rights. >

Agreed.

The police should have questioned whoever called them and asked if the person carrying the gun was wielding it or threatening someone with it.

Someone blew it. Either the person calling made false statements, the dispatcher interpreted it wrong or the police were unnecessarily aggressive.

[MightyMouth]

And if you had not been in Condition White, you might have reacted in exactly the proper way one should react when grabbed by unknown assailants, and your wife would be collecting your life insurance right about now. I'm not an advocate of wandering around unaware, but it may have saved your life this time (btw, this is ~el from GO-NH :o).

[Tenx]

I read Mike Pelletier's post and am not surprised he got "tossed" by the cops for carrying a handgun openly in the 21st Century. I am a retired federal agent and carry CCW now and always carry concealed. It may have been "a warm evening", but CCW people must realize they have NO absolute rights to carry openly and offend non-gun-owners who are also voters. Occasionally I see new CCW folks carry openly and I tell them to "cover it" or put it in the car trunk. Some CCW folks flaunt CCW and do us all a grave disservice. Further, if there were any bad guys in that bookstore, Mike marked himself for being the first shot because he carried indiscreetly.

Tenx

[SAB835]

There are two schools of thought on this dilemma.
The right to carry, I fully condone as do many others but there are many who do not.
In keeping with that, anything you can do to limit the negative attention to firearms is in all our best interest.
It is all our responsibilities to keep our firearms secure, safe, and under our control at all times.
The same effort that goes into safe handling has to be practiced in concealment, who ever called the police acted correctly and at least was alert to a potential threat. You are an unknown quantity and therefore were a potential problem.
Had the firearm been properly concealed, you would just be another customer.
You screwed up, the police while perhaps over zealous were just doing there job, don't complain about the fact that they were effective.

By the way, "small of the back" is the worst method for gun handling as well as your own physical safety, one slip and fall and you could very easily suffer serious spinal damage.

It is not the way to carry, also taking a few courses doesn't make you qualified for anything, the fact that your firearm was not concealed made you a first target in an armed robbery.

Save your money don't sue the police, spend your funds on some additional lessons on the proper use of your firearm.

SB

[SAB835]

There are two schools of thought on this dilemma.
The right to carry, I fully condone as do many others but there are many who do not.
In keeping with that, anything you can do to limit the negative attention to firearms is in all our best interest.
It is all our responsibilities to keep our firearms secure, safe, and under our control at all times.
The same effort that goes into safe handling has to be practiced in concealment, who ever called the police acted correctly and at least was alert to a potential threat. You are an unknown quantity and therefore were a potential problem.
Had the firearm been properly concealed, you would just be another customer.
You screwed up, the police while perhaps over zealous were just doing there job, don't complain about the fact that they were effective.

By the way, "small of the back" is the worst method for gun handling as well as your own physical safety, one slip and fall and you could very easily suffer serious spinal damage.

It is not the way to carry, also taking a few courses doesn't make you qualified for anything, the fact that your firearm was not concealed made you a first target in an armed robbery.

Save your money don't sue the police, spend your funds on some additional lessons on the proper use of your firearm.

SB