Indians outperformed USAF F15E

Strategy Page ^ | 3/1/2004 12:35:32 PM | JJFS

[AnIndianFromIndia]

"In the just finished exercise, IAF pilots shot down all the four F15Es on the first day itself. Both in the offensive and in the defensive sorties, IAF pilots did very well against USAF."

According to another post on this board, the USAF dominated BVR combat, whereas the Indians had a 4 to 1 kill ratio in dogfighting.

"But, the Americans did not field their F22s or F16s. While F16 could not have done better, F22 could. They may test it in the future. Russians fighting USA? It may never happen. The only other way to check how good the Russian fighters are, US-India joint exercise is the only way to find out. The best reason is that the IAF pilots are not inferior to Russians and hence, if USAF pilots can shoot down SU-30, then they can very well shoot them even while handled by the Russians. But, ofcourse, Russians have better planes than SU-30, which may outperform F22?"

The F-16s would have performed better at close range than the F-15s, worse at long range. The Russians DO NOT field better planes than the Su-30mk. It is the most advanced version of the Flanker series, and more advanced than anything in service with the Russian air force.

Indians outperformed USAF F15E 2/27/2004 1:56:07 PM Hi folks,

Read this: "They performed very well. I think in most cases they were equal to us, superior in some aspects. So it was a very good learning experience for both sides. It was a very tough scenario on all days, the pilot skill levels were also equal a lot of times. It felt like we were fighting ourselves, when we were fighting the Indian Air Force guys," said Captain Vogel, US 19 Squadron.

It appeared at http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?slug=Indo-US+Air+Force+exercise+ends&id=49559.

[DustyMoment]

While, IMO, the USAF doesn't represent the best pilots the US has, I suspect that the Indians were suckered in order for the USAF to gain some intelligence about the IAF.

This is not to say that the Indians have an inferior military, nothing could be further from the truth. I believe that the only way they could have shot down 4 out of 4 is if the USAF pilots WANTED the IAF to think think that. If the USAF pilots were out to engage in real dogfights, the ratio might have, at least, been closer to 50-50, than 100-0.

[Kozak]

zero, that was easy, I saw the show.

We have a WINNER!

I'll take the US technology in a real fight any day.

[Hillarys Gate Cult]

I also saw that show earlier. There are actually people who believe that the Israeli pilot who landed the F-15 with just one wing never happened. We got to see that when I worked for McDonnell Douglas. Impressive true story.

[Hillarys Gate Cult]

DustyMoment in post 21 got it. We sometimes sandbag these exercises for various reasons.

[bert]

Thanks for checking in and bringing us this article.

Please clarify what the IAF was flying.

[CasearianDaoist]

bump

[The Wizard]

My guess is that the Americans were "learning" new tactics, not "showing" what they know

[7.62 x 51mm]

Welcome to FR. Good post.

[Louisiana]

Two reasons why we "lost" and allowed India to win.

(1) India needs to look very good next to its neighbors (China, Pak)

(2) The USAF wants the new F22 - American politicans need to see the need of having the new F22.

Give me a break... they lost last year to the French and now beat us hands down. Something smells here.

[blam]

I read a couple years ago that the SU-30 was an excellent airplane...and, one to be 'watched' by the US.

[FR_addict]

This article gives more details on the exercise.

IAF pilots test skills against USAF
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/25iaf.htm

[Missouri]

We got to see that when I worked for McDonnell Douglas. Impressive true story.

I worked at MAC till it became Boeing (sad story). I can't say enough good things about the F-15. A lot of titanium goes into that jet.

[dalereed]

Next time, send the Navy!

Best pilots in the world.

[HoustonCurmudgeon]

It's an interesting post but color me skeptical--the Indians beat the French then lose to the U.S. Air Force?

You have this backward. They lost to the French then beat the Americans.

I have a young friend who just finished his training in an F15E and will query him about this.

[Veloxherc]

A lot of these exercises are set up as a learning experience. If the USAF goes out and kills the Indians in 30 sec what good does that do anybody. They are all there to learn and and get better. The F-15's were there to teach the Indians and help them improve. If they are all "dead" they learn nothing.

[atomic conspiracy]

In practical terms, the F15E is an attack aircraft rather than a fighter. It is a two seater with a lot of extra structural strengthening and equipment for increased weapons loads, and is considerably heavier than the primary air-combat version, the F-15C. The "E" has a maximum gross weight of 81,000 vs. 68,500 for the "C".
Further, "E" crews do not specialize in air-air combat, though they have considerable training in it. The "E" is touted as a dual-role aircraft with considerable air-air capability but this is obviously compromised to some extent. You don't get something for nothing.
Something is wrong with the article's triumphant interpretation of this exercise. The claim that F-16s would not have done better is simply unsupportable on the facts.
Given the F-15E's primary role, this does not appear to be a straightforward match of "top guns" but more probably a simulation of an airspace penetration and defense scenario.

[VOA]

bump

[Tallguy]

From the USAF perspective this was a "goodwill tour." I don't think we really thought we'd learn anything that we didn't already know or suspect. The SU-30 is a fine dogfighter with decent BVR capability. The F-15 is a good BVR fighter with decent dogfighting abilities. Take away the AWACs, and other force multipliers, and the Indians are even or ahead.

BTW, the reports are that the F-22 is not a dogfighter. Dogfighting is not an argument for the F-22.

[Vinnie]

The
F-15E is the Strike Eagle, designed for use as a fighter -bomber. I don't know if there are some differences that would make it inferior to the F-15 interceptors. (hard points for instance that would spoil streamlining)