Posted on 08/02/2004 5:49:37 AM PDT by BluegrassScholar
Edited on 08/02/2004 10:43:46 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
Carrie is 2 years old, with curly brown hair and Windex-blue eyes. In a still-life portrait, she would be adorable. In three dimensions, she's a cross between a Gerber baby and the Tasmanian devil. Bang. Bang, bang, bang, and bang and bang.
That's the noise of the plastic water cup she is whacking against the ceramic-topped table of a neighborhood coffeehouse whose concrete floors function like an echo chamber. If she had a hammer she would have destroyed the table by now, and I'm pretty sure her parents would've let her. People look up from their lattes, squint at the diminutive figure making the big, ear-splitting noise, and try to continue with their newspapers or conversations. The banging goes on for a good 10 minutes. Normally, I would say something -- I'm not shy about these things -- but I'm curious to know just how long her parents, with whom I'm having coffee, will let this go. The answer: Indefinitely. They don't even seem to notice. Maybe they're just used to it?
On some primal level, Carrie must be offended that she's not the center of attention. There is anger in her banging, along with what I read as malice. As she grows even more restive, her father lowers her to the floor. Still clutching the cup, Carrie crawls through the room, pounding on the concrete floor as she goes along, giving everyone an up-close earful of her drum solo.
A few weeks later, I'm at a party, mostly adults with a few kids sprinkled in, among them the volcanically unruly 5-year-old son of a friend. As I squat down to greet him, he responds by biting me in the arm, leaving teeth marks through a shirt and a sweater. I am just about to spank his little behind when I realize I'm in dangerous territory. People go to jail for that these days.
Heh heh.. Reminds me of one of my favorite stories about our twin daughters. They both would lose anything and everything. Now that they are 20, they are a little better, but not much! We were always late for things because one or the other couldn't find both shoes. This had gone on for years without finding a good solution. One Sunday when they were about 10, I had had it with them and said fine, we will go to church with you wearing just one shoe. And we did. I did tell her that if she took the other one off, it wouldn't be as noticeable. From that time forward, she always knew where her shoes were. About 2 weeks later though, her sister did the same thing - also to never do it again. LOL They tell me now that it was then that they realized I meant business and it forced them to be responsible for their shoes. I only wish I had done it earlier!
You said: Bratty behavior in church always annoys me. Many years ago, I grabbed a child who was running around in the moments between Sunday School and worship services, whooping and yelling, and lectured him about his behavior and how it wasn't appropriate for God's house. I really didn't care if his parents saw me or not. They let this kid terrorize everyone, including themselves, all because they'd never discipline him.
Assuming that the child was baptised in that church, you did the right thing by correcting this child (and I bet the rest of the congregation was thankful). I see this failure to control one's children as a symptom of the "no responsibility" attitude taken by many today. One of my arguments against the many handout programs generated by the liberals in this country USED TO BE that parents would never just give these things to their children without expecting them to earn it. I guess that argument won't work any more.
The mind of a child is very impressionable. Begin as early as possible to instill manners and good behaviour. Be firm and assertive.
Also along this line, is teaching kids to have courtsey and respect to people who are not of the same race or religion. Example, when putting out the trash one night, I clearly overheard my neighbor's grandchild say: "Is that one (meaning me) the one we are supposed to hate and the one you are trying to get rid of?" The grandparent responded very loudly, so I could hear "Yes, that's the one."
No wonder there is such turmoil in the world.
Could it be that the "natural" stage of teenage rebellion is a myth built of experience; that it is not natural or inevitable at all, but simply the bill coming due for all the permissiveness of childhood?
Someone will answer that teens still rebel, or even more so, in strict religious households. My response it that we are NOT talking here about just being strict. Sometimes, parents can be "strict" because they are lazy, and don't want the effort of forming their individual child by loving discipline. Of course an adoloescent will chafe at that.
But we are talking about child development. If you have to pull tight reins on a 16 year old, again, you may be strict, but you lost 10 ten years ago and just don't know it.
>>A child with constant correction but no fun will be an adult who is incapable of happiness (he can't believe it is possible). A child with no correction will be an adult who is incapable of happiness (he believes it is possible but can never find it).>>
Well put.
I have a *great* book to recommend. It's called "Child Training Tips by Reb Bradley. Available at Amazon.
Some of the topics:
>Can children obey when spooken to calmly and only one time?
>Can different children be held to the same standard?
>How can a parent determine if a toddler understands simple directions?
>What are the characteristics of rebellion?
>What is a "child-run" home? How can parental control be regained?
>What exactly is "sass" and how can it be stopped?
Practical, wise, helpful!
MotherOfTen
"simply the bill coming due for all the permissiveness of childhood?"
It's too easy to just blame it on permissiveness.
It's more the result of not having an actual relationship with the children and letting them know that they are loved and that they are valued, along with proper discipline.
The teenage rebellion thing is a factor for permissive and non-permissive parents both.
Parenting, then, is the art of removing the time-gap between the choice and the consequence so that the natural deception inherent in God's patience is avoided...making the child EXPERIENCE the law of the universe, which is simple and clear: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked; whatever you sow, that will you also reap."
Because I love him, I insist he reap what he sows in a manner that makes the connection clear. He will then correct all his own behavior, being rational and pain-adverse.
Ohhhhhh...my dad did this so well. The Vulcan neck pinch my brother and I used to call it.
I'll have to remember that one when my little one is acting up (I'm due any second now). Thank God my husband and I believe in, what today would be called, "Strict Parenting" Forget this Spare the Rod, mamby pamby crap. I will remember this post in 2 years when the little guy is acting up, I promise. :) Thanks for the memory!
Suz
I agree, but there are three styles, not just two: permissive, "strict", and loving.
"I hate you, you F...g B...ch!" If my kid had said something like that to me LAST WEEK, he'd still be rubbing his raw-red cheek from the open-handed BITCH slap I'd have wailed on his insolent face.
But then, my kids woudn't have said that in a zillion years, or for a zillion dollars. It's not in them, because of the way they were raised.
My kids are actually much better behaved than I am, in certain ways, and (respectfully) upbraid me when I cross a line. They're 19 (girl) and 11 (boy).
I have observed this, over a couple generations: The worst-behaved kids are the kids of LIBERALS, in general. In general, the best-behaved kids are the kids of CONSERVATIVES. I could write two thousand words on why this is so, but a) most of the answers are included implicitly in this thread, and b), I'm preaching to the choir, so I'll save myself some time.
I have also tracked a few liberal-raised kids in my fairly affluent town here in suburban Pittsburgh, having seen them from pre-school to college, and I can report this: the lost souls we all know of, the ones with inchoate rage who can't really "find themselves"? From liberal households, every one. And they're parents still don't get it. They have saddled their children with a likely lifetime of misery. That is their mortal sin for which I will not forgive them.
Don't know how many times I tried to explain to my ex the cost of being inconsistent with our children. "If you say you're going to kill them if they do that again, and they do it again, by God, you better kill them". She never got it. The point was I didn't care much for threatening our kids with death. Its amazing what a child might believe you actually mean. I have to say, though, she was a stay-at-home Mom and despite that issue, our two sons turned out to be frequently praised for their good behavior in other's homes.
When I want to talk to my son in a public place, and there is a lot going on around us, and I just need to remind him of what is expected of him, I put my hand on the back of his neck just to gently pull him close and I bend down close to his ear. No pressure, no pain -- but it says to him "stand still and listen to me for a moment and all will go well".
More and more all I need to do is touch him there to get his undivided attention.
But, like Fonzie said to Richey, "you need to have hit somebody in order to not need to."
On the other hand, the children of never-told-no children will *not* be raised in the same manner.
Someone will answer that teens still rebel, or even more so, in strict religious households. My response it that we are NOT talking here about just being strict. Sometimes, parents can be "strict" because they are lazy, and don't want the effort of forming their individual child by loving discipline. Of course an adoloescent will chafe at that.
I dreaded the teen age years until we got there, then I realized that we really enjoyed them as teens. I think that raising them with loving discipline and having them learn how and watch you learn to walk with the Lord totally negates the desire to be rebellious. We were very fortunate that none of our 4, VERY strong-willed children really ever wanted to rebel. Oh, on occasion they all tried to test the waters some, but kids do that from the time they are born, I think. And now that they are older, they have become good friends with us.
I think it is matter of having them understand that they are foremost accountable to the Lord rather than to impose "religion" on them that made a difference as teenagers.
BTTT
That's pretty funny. I took my friend and her two kids out for ice cream. While we were sitting their chatting, her 6 year old son suddenly looked at me and as spitefully as he could, said to me, "you're mean." I wasn't saying anything particularly mean at the time so was taken aback. My friend looks at her son and says something to the effect of "why did you say that?" She never corrected him in any manner. I was so offended that later that evening I phoned her and told her what I thought and she said "oh, I guess I'm just so used to it" and I pointed out to her that since I'm her friend and an adult, she should have corrected his behavior right on the spot. Rudeness should be corrected in children. What can I say? The parents are responsible.
Hi BluegrassScholar...
This is personal (all about me) and I don't mean to hi-j@ck your thread but this is right up my alley and have had constant problems with these very issues.
My husband has two boys (now 14 and 24) and I have one son (22). We married ten years ago and double standards have prevailed in this household since the beginning. I won't go into specifics on that...
My husband's oldest (24) has been sleeping on the 14 yo's bedroom floor for six months, has worked about two full time months. This has been ok with my husband until I indicated the oldest cannot pay bills, we have purchased his last two trucks, and given him others.. old trucks... anyway, his father, my husband has always let him come and go as he pleases. Case in point, but not my real problem.
The real problem is the 14 year old. Since he was ten or so years old, he would "spend the night" and come home two or three days later without a phone call (he was still in the neighborhood. This child makes straight D's and does not have ADD (been tested). He eats like a hog, shovelling food into his mouth, eating with his hands. He eats NO veggies or fruits, just chef boy r dee, pizza, ham sandwiches, hot pockets and most any sweet. He puts Hershey's in his hot chocolate!...
He is disrespectful to me, and I'm sure others.
When I criticize or otherwise mention any of these things, my Husband cuts me off and turns it all on me (I'm just a bitch, or pmsing). I can say very very little because this child is his "baby"...
This is all okay with my husband to a great degree... He's not really okay with all of this, just not willing to do anything about it and won't back up any boundaries he does set...there is more but this should give the idea...
To explain a little, my husband grew up very poor and with everyday beatings and was used as a child slave many many days. He has swung to the opposite, and cannot seem to locate middle ground.
btw, my son 22 has lived on his own since about sixteen or seventeen years of age in spite of some very real problems and has pushed through. It hasn't been easy on me to choose discipline over my heart. In fact, it still sucks!! But it is beginning to pay off, and will hopefully continue.
Looking for pointers from this most wise group...
Best regards to you.. ba7
I in no way mean to add to your guilt, Friend, but you should have called 9-1-1. You witnessed assault, and should have intervened.
By the time your kids are 9 or 10 years old, they will get the idea that YOU are the boss, and they are the peons. No "equality" between generations YET. My grammie used to say, whenever anyone asked her how she managed to raise such well behaved kids, "Well, I guess you just hit 'em and hug 'em." I'm sure she meant don't spare the discipline, but don't spare the LOVE, either. You can spoil a kid with permissiveness, but you can't spoil them with love, and believe me, there's a vast difference between the two.
Two great responses I have heard over the years from feed up fathers.
Father number one to mouthy son." Shut up or I am going to slap the taste out of your mouth." It worked.
Father number two, to mouthy daughter." Shut up or I am going to smack another crack in your ass." It worked also.
It was evident from these men that they weren't making threats. They were making unbreakable promises.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.