John Grogan | Second thoughts on Terri Schiavo

Philadelphia Inquirer ^ | Feb. 25, 2005 | John Grogan

[AliVeritas]

Sometimes even newspaper columnists change their minds.

In the matter of Terri Schiavo, the permanently brain-damaged former suburban Philadelphia woman caught in a life-and-death tug-of-war, this columnist has changed his.

I no longer so blithely believe Schiavo's feeding tubes should be pulled and her life allowed to end. I'm no longer so sure her parents do not deserve a say in their daughter's future. I no longer am totally comfortable assuming her husband, Michael, who now has two children by another woman, is acting unselfishly.

That's not to say I have changed my opinion about the right of all of us to die with dignity when life has lost all meaning. But for Terri Schiavo, who lingers in a Florida nursing home, the devil is in the details, uncomfortable details that raise sticky moral dilemmas.

Detail 1: Terry Schiavo is not dying. She is not being kept alive artificially. Her heart beats and lungs breathe without help. She cannot swallow food or water. Once the feeding tube is removed, she would slowly starve to death over days or weeks.

Detail 2: Schiavo is not comatose. Her eyes open, and she sometimes responds to stimuli. Doctors say there is no brain activity and her responses are simply reflexive. Her parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, want to believe otherwise.

[AliVeritas]

I have several journalists to send this to. There is hope.

[muawiyah]

Actually, we should remove journalist's feeding tubes before they are allowed to write on this subject.

[ZGuy]

Just FYI - I checked DU yesterday just to find out what they were saying, and it appears that a large percentage of them (over 50% and possibly growing) are on Terri's side too.

[Graymatter]

Re Detail 1, if she cannot swallow, what keeps her from choking on saliva? Where's it going? It doesn't evaporate.

[luv2ski]

Just FYI - I checked DU yesterday just to find out what they were saying, and it appears that a large percentage of them (over 50% and possibly growing) are on Terri's side too.

Wow! Really? I am surprised to hear that. Last night on Fox, Alan Combs did his best to defend her creep of a husband. He kept repeating that a doctor had written that she is in a persistent vegetative state. 'Rings pretty hollow to me.

[luv2ski]

BTW, this is one of those "must register to continue" sites. Any chance of posting more of the article? Or are we prohibited from doing so?

[Graymatter]

Well that's news to me! I checked it out 2 days ago and they were all (except one person) on Michael's side. I'll see if I can find that thread, and the one you're reading.

[sandbar]

>>>Just FYI - I checked DU yesterday just to find out what they were saying, and it appears that a large percentage of them (over 50% and possibly growing) are on Terri's side too.>>>

Wouldn't it be a beautiful thing if for one moment, a beautiful woman like Terri brought together the impossible? Free Republic and Democratic Underground joining forces? Wow, that would be monumental, LOL.

[JulieRNR21]

FYI.....PING

Look at this.......keep on calling, emailing & praying!

John Grogan in Philly Inquirer:

"In the matter of Terri Schiavo, the permanently brain-damaged former suburban Philadelphia woman caught in a life-and-death tug-of-war, this columnist has changed his.

I no longer so blithely believe Schiavo's feeding tubes should be pulled and her life allowed to end. I'm no longer so sure her parents do not deserve a say in their daughter's future. I no longer am totally comfortable assuming her husband, Michael, who now has two children by another woman, is acting unselfishly."

[From many - one.]

That's terrific.

What if someone were to go over there openly as a FReeper and say...looks as if this is a bipartisan issue...let's make news by getting it out there that many on both the left and right agree on this.

That should create a media blip of some size.

On some other threads I've posted that we should hook Terri herself up to some type of lie detector device and question her. See what she thinks of her husband, if she wants to starve to death etc.

[GovernmentShrinker]

It has been a huge mistake on the part of the don't-kill-Terri activists to frame the case as a pro-euthanasia/anti-euthanasia battle. It is nothing of the sort. I am very pro-euthanasia, but it obviously has to be done only with strong legal protections in place, and in line with the clearly expressed will of the person being euthanized. In Terri's case, the only evidence that she would want to be euthanized is the flimsy word of a "husband" who clearly has a vested interest in getting her dead ASAP. Furthermore, the doctors who assert that she should be allowed to die, are simultaneously asserting that she is incapable of any awareness or pain, i.e. that she is not suffering (and severe suffering would be the only reasonable circumstance under which to euthanize someone who had not clearly expressed such a wish).

[fortunecookie]

It's wonderful to see people finally starting to get it. He now gets that she is not dying, not being kept alive artificially. It's a start. But this part gets me:

I no longer so blithely believe Schiavo's feeding tubes should be pulled and her life allowed to end.

Pull the feeding tubes and 'allow her life to end'? Get him a medical dictionary. Pull the feeding tubes and she dies a long slow death by starvation and dehydration that can take up to 2 weeks. People would protest if animals were treated thusly, yet it is somehow deemed 'death with dignity' for people by certain groups. Where is the dignity in a death where even the tiniest bit of water to ease a dehydrated mouth is not permitted? And yet Michael tried to do just that - prevent people from giving her drops of water the first time the tubes were pulled.

[JulieRNR21]

LOOK HERE......a columnist has changed his mind on Terri.

[ZGuy]

Unlike FR, DU research is a pain. I checked probably 10 threads to see what was being said. I didn't do a name-by-name check of the posters though. I was just trying to see what percentage of the comments were life vs. death. I really didn't know what to expect, but this may be one of those times where you join with the Russians to defeat the Germans. (And hope that some of the Russians will defect!)

[Rutles4Ever]

Can someone post the entire article, or is this on the "excerpt only" list?

[mass55th]

"He kept repeating that a doctor had written that she is in a persistent vegetative state. Rings pretty hollow to me."

And Doctors aren't always correct in their diagnoses. We've seen it time and time again.

I'm a little tired of her husband's claims that he knows his wife would rather be allowed to die than being kept alive this way. Someone should ask him how he thinks his wife feels about his committing adultery and knocking up another woman. I bet Terri wouldn't want that either.

[LYSandra]

I noticed he said the word "vegetative" MANY times. He creeps me out any more. I had thought when he married he might ellow a bit but seems too wacky left for me!

[Annie03]

I'm glad someone posted this....I read it earlier this morning and sent John Grogan a brief note of thanks. Took the edge off the stupid AP piece about Terri having and eating disorder and how ironic it all is (barf). It seems that more and more people are seeing Terri as a living, breathing human.

[cyn]

Hi, Ali. Great find -- thanks for posting this. When you post an article, would you pls do a courtesy ping to Ohioan from Florida, floriduh voter, cyn, (any others you think of)? Thanks so much -- it's hard to keep up, and it's gonna get harder.

[texasbluebell]

I thought she has been seen to swallow by the nursing staff, but the estranged husband will not allow people to feed her by mouth.

Am I incorrect?

Does anyone know the answer to my question?

[Graymatter]

The thread I saw was titled "Judge orders continued feeding for Florida woman" and I'd rather not post a link to that trash but you can find the thread in their Late Breaking News forum, it has over 100 replies. Opening post was 2/23/05 and the topic id # is 1261025. It now has a few more pro-Terri people---but very few.

[Cicero]

All we know is what we read. But several nurses have suggested that she responds to conversation, that she welcomes any kind of stimulation. And there is some reason to think that she could swallow small amounts of liquid or food.

What that suggests is that she could have been weaned from the feeding tube if the nurses had been allowed to feed her.

But they are not. They are not allowed to feed her or talk to her, and several of them have been fired for disobeying these orders.

[texasbluebell]

Thank you. As I thought.

She has been neglected for 15 years, for the most part.

This is such a travesty.

[Old Professer]

To be pro-euthansia implies the need for an agent authorize to euthanize.

Have you a candidate in mind?

Where would the authority come from, a local, regional or national body of law?

[floriduh voter]

Here's a NEW freeper created Terri Message Thread at the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, California:

http://bbs.crystalcathedral.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001904.html

Please join this forum and help save Terri! Thanks, FV

[TAdams8591]

Please Ping your list, OfF.

[sharktrager]

Once the feeding tube is removed, she would slowly starve to death over days or weeks.

Perhaps one needs to read further.

[TAdams8591]

WOW!!!! THAT IS AMAZING!

[TAdams8591]

The author gets it half right, which is still incredible for someone who writes for the very LIBERAL Philadelphia Inquirer.

For instance, in the paragraph below he fails to mention the 1991 bone scan, showing Terri with all those broken bones at different stages of healing. Such evidence suggests the possibility that Terri was physically abused by Michael Schiavo is far more than conjecture or inuendo.

"Detail 4: Unproven allegations that Schiavo might have suffered physical trauma immediately before her heart stopped for several minutes in 1990, leading to brain damage, have not been fully investigated. The Schindlers have long suggested their son-in-law strangled their daughter; Michael Schiavo's lawyer says the abuse allegations have never been substantiated. Before pulling the plug on this woman, don't these questions need to be fully answered?'

"The abuse allegations against Michael Schiavo may be nothing but scurrilous rumor spread to damage his credibility. But what if there is even a tiny chance he is guilty of abuse? Should such a person be in a position to decide this life-and-death issue?"

[cyn]

FYI:

Attorney David Gibbs visited Terri last night with the dad, Bob Schindler. Cheryl Ford wrote the following:

Terri goes Goo~Goo eyes over Attorney Gibbs

By Cheryl Ford RN

February 25, 2005

Last night at hospice Terri's father, Robert Schindler and Attorney Gibbs visited with Terri. Mr. Schindler was the first to enter Terri's room, approaching Terri on her right. As always, Terri was delighted to see her Dad until Mr. Schindler announced that Mr. Gibbs was with him.

Mr. Gibbs moved closer to Terri's left greeting her with, "Hello Terri."

Terri, hearing Mr. Gibb's deep voice immediately turned to her left to look at him. Terri's Dad stated that once she eyed Mr. Gibbs that was the end of his visit with her because she was no longer interested in anything he had to say to her..."she was goo-goo eyes over Attorney Gibbs."

Mr. Schindler then exclaimed, "Terri, Terri, look at me. I've come here to see you as well and now you cannot take your eyes off of Attorney Gibbs, what am I chopped liver?" Terri responded with laughter to her father's comment but her eyes remained focused on Mr. Gibbs.

Bob said,"Well, Cheryl that's the last time I will be taking Mr. Gibbs along with me since my daughter did not hear anything I had to say once he had her attention."

3,692 posted on 02/25/2005 1:16:26 PM EST by amdgmary (Please visit www.terrisfight.org & www.theempirejournal.com)

Attorney David Gibbs visited Terri last night with the dad, Bob Schindler. Cheryl Ford wrote the following:

Terri goes Goo~Goo eyes over Attorney Gibbs

By Cheryl Ford RN

February 25, 2005

Last night at hospice Terri's father, Robert Schindler and Attorney Gibbs visited with Terri. Mr. Schindler was the first to enter Terri's room, approaching Terri on her right. As always, Terri was delighted to see her Dad until Mr. Schindler announced that Mr. Gibbs was with him.

Mr. Gibbs moved closer to Terri's left greeting her with, "Hello Terri."

Terri, hearing Mr. Gibb's deep voice immediately turned to her left to look at him. Terri's Dad stated that once she eyed Mr. Gibbs that was the end of his visit with her because she was no longer interested in anything he had to say to her..."she was goo-goo eyes over Attorney Gibbs."

Mr. Schindler then exclaimed, "Terri, Terri, look at me. I've come here to see you as well and now you cannot take your eyes off of Attorney Gibbs, what am I chopped liver?" Terri responded with laughter to her father's comment but her eyes remained focused on Mr. Gibbs.

Bob said,"Well, Cheryl that's the last time I will be taking Mr. Gibbs along with me since my daughter did not hear anything I had to say once he had her attention."

[fortunecookie]

*blush* I guess I feel so strongly about it, I jumped to posting without fully reading. oops. At least he gets that part, too. Although I was led under the impression from other older stories that Terri could swallow the tiniest amounts of liquids...

[GovernmentShrinker]

Ideally, the agent is person to be euthanized, either still capable of expressing the wish, or having executed a clear directive in advance. In cases of an infant or young child, the parents should decide.

The idea of the government/courts ultimately making the determination to euthanize is not inherently more worrisome than the idea of the government/courts being able to force people to stay alive for years while suffering and incapacitated, when the people in question do not believe this is right and do not believe that their own or taxpayers' or insurers' money should be financing the endeavor. My life belongs to me -- not to the government, not to Hillary's village -- and it should be my decision under what circumstances I wish it to terminate.

[Ohioan from Florida]

Terri ping! If anyone would like to be added to or removed from my Terri ping list, please let me know by FReepmail!

[Old Professer]

So you would have a patient pull his own plug, or failing that a parent could inject the overdose of painkiller or an older child could turn off the valve on the drip I.V. connected to his elderly parent's collapsing vein?

[freepertoo]

ROFL at Terri making eyes at the attorney! :0D I wonder if she knows he is actively trying to save her.

[True Republican Patriot]

Thats a GREAT IDEA!! and I am sure she can respond.The Lie Detector responds to bodily reactions. Also, just her body english will answer for her. As the writer points out she really wants to live to survive thru what she has endured at the hands of the wife abuser, liar and possibly alot more serious attempted acts.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Doctors should be able to do this, with proper legal authorization. Elderly people have plenty of time to put their wishes in writing, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to require that. A severely disabled infant obviously never has that capacity, so the parents should have the legal right to make the decision.

The government, through the courts, should never have the power to force parents to watch their severely disabled infant/child suffer when it has no realistic hope of recovery. Nor should the government be able to force elderly people to suffer, or force their families to watch them spend months or years as virtual vegetables, when the patient has executed a will clearly indicating that s/he doesn't want this.

My mother has executed such a will, and she is counting on me to make sure her wishes are followed. I don't want any meddlesome courts or self-appointed anti-euthanasia activists interfering with her wishes being carried out.

[hattend]

Just heard on the ABC radio news. "Judge" Greer has spoken, the feeding tube can be removed.

Somebody better pull an "Elian Gonzales" and get her to a safe house.

[hattend]

Ping

Just heard on the ABC radio news. "Judge" Greer has spoken, the feeding tube can be removed.

Somebody better pull an "Elian Gonzales" and get her to a safe house.

[spiralsue]

How can you be "very" pro-euthanasia? What does that mean?

[hattend]

Now I read on another thread that's she's "safe" until March 18th. Which is correct?

Guess I have to listen to the radio until I hear another report.

[hattend]

Hearing it again on the bottom of the hour "newsflash". The stay has been denied but case is under review....now they say the rest, this review has extended her life until Mar 18th.

Amazing how leaving out a choice piece of info sort of changes the whole story.

[G Larry]

>I am very pro-euthanasia, but it obviously has to be done only with strong legal protections in place, and in line with the clearly expressed will of the person being euthanized.<

You're joking right?
How long do you believe it would take for your "strong legal protections" to evaporate?

Check out Denmark or the Netherlands for reference.
Families get to pretend they represent the interests of the patients.
Facility administrators represent only the interests of the bottom line of the institution, and either remove support or actively administer death.

I've watched my younger brother die a slow death from ALS and a Grandmother die from a long battle w cancer.
So don't tell me some whiney tale about compassion for the suffering.
Most often it is our own selfish discomfort with watching the loved one suffer that propels our supposed compassion.

[GovernmentShrinker]

I'm very pro-euthanasia, just like I'm very pro-RKBA. I think free citizens have unfettered rights to carry arms while they're alive, and to determine for themselves when they don't want to be alive any more. In addition, I do/will exercise those rights for myself. I don't want anybody wasting time and money to keep me alive when I'm no longer able to do anything, or to communicate, or when I'm suffering so much that I'd rather be dead.

[GovernmentShrinker]

I have strong legal protections against being murdered by some thug on the street, but of course it can still happen. Just because legal protections can be circumvented by those bent on breaking the law, is not a reason to prevent people from having their expressed euthanasia wishes carried out. Likewise, the fact that thugs still murder people even though it's illegal and carries strong penalties, is not a reason for the government to disarm the general public.

[G Larry]

I didn't say the legal protections would be violated, as in your misguided murder example.

I said they would evaporate!
People would find excuses, such as Terri's situation, to errode those "legal protections".
Those "legal protections" would not last as long as butter on a Bagdad sidewalk.

[Ibredd]

This poor women's Husband has chosen another for his wife, so how many wifes does one get at a time in this country. This man needs to move on and let this woman alone and look after his wife with the two kids.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Violate, evaporate, whatever. I'm no more worried about protections against unwanted euthanasia evaporating, than about protections against forced life-extension evaporating (and those are very shaky already).

[pc93]

Bump.

[pc93]

Let's become the media and show them what we are made of. Maybe they will emulate the same. Hopefully they will not continue devolving.