Posted on 05/19/2005 6:58:23 PM PDT by iso
"Tell that to the Israelis, Egyptians and Syrians. Quite a bit of air to air in the '73 war, and then latter in the Great Bekka Valley Turkey shoot."
Significantly less air-to-air in 1973 than in 1967, and even less in 1982. And none since then.
Even though he said they were pretty much rockets with wings and only avoided the earth through sheer will of engine thrust, they were incredible to fly.
I think the Phantom is one of the only aircraft that looks totally pissed off all the time: one the ground...in the air...from any angle it just looks mad.
Behold the most beautiful fighter ever conceived by human beings!
Yep! I forgot to mention it in my earlier post. I'd say it's a toss-up with the P-51 and the Spitfire! Beautiful picture!
No reason to apologize.
An air superiority fighter has to be able to handle a lot of different circumstances. The same agility that let's it be dogfigther helps it evade SAMs. The same stealth that protects it from aircraft also protect it from SAMs.
The best use of an F-22 is at BVR. Kill the enemy before they can see you. But it is possible that we don't see all of them. So if someone gets a visual (it's not invisible) on the F-22 it will have to act like a dogfighter. That is why it still has a cannon and 2 AIM-9Xs. Odds are the guns will never be used, but the Air Force remembers Vietnam, when we did not put guns on planes at first. Big mistake.
And please, the fly off cost is around $110 million. The $250 million is the game the MSM likes to use to distort military spending.
Interesting quote for you -
"Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed"
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-15-variants.htm
There are some f-4s still flying out of Edwards afb. Saw ine the other day. It was an RF-4.
Try the F-35...
Built to fight where others fear to fly!
I second that motion.
Of course, being an ol USAF (Nam Vet) I'm just a little prejudice. LOL
Now "she" was a beaut and awe-inspiring.. . . . .
NEVER forget (neither will anyone else) the first time I "heard/saw" one.
In 64 while stationed in Hawaii
The sound (High-pitch "scream") is like a Harley or GTO--unique and awesome.
The first deployment of USAF F-4Cs to Southeast Asia occurred in December 1964, when the 555th TFS, 12th TFW, was sent to Okinawa. Before long, Air Force Phantoms were undertaking combat missions.
Initial USAF deliveries of the Phantom began in February 1963, with the delivery of 29 “borrowed” Navy F-4Bs (given USAF serial numbers, but eventually returned). The first 27 went to MacDill AFB, Florida to the 836th Air Division, which included the 4453rd Combat Crew Training Squadron as well as the 12th and 15th Tactical Fighter Wings. These aircraft were joined in November 1963 by the first production F-4C Phantoms. Both types appear in this photo of the MacDill flight ramp.
An early production F-4C (USAF serial number 63-7445) makes a strafing run with one of its pod-mounted M61 Vulcan rotary cannons. The Air Force developed these because the Phantom had no internal guns
An F-4C of the 391st TFW, 12th TFW, out of Cam Ranh Bay, dramatically rolls in on a target in the wooded hills of Vietnam in the late 1960s
1978, Phantom No. 5000 climbs skyward. onstration teams — the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds
James S. McDonnell, Founder and Chairman of the Board, McDonnell Douglas Corporation, with the 5,000th Phantom
Over its lifetime, the F-4 Phantom:
Set 15 world aviation records within its first 28 months, including altitude (98,500 ft.), 8 time-to-climb marks, and speed (Mach 2.59)
· 5 speed records were held for 13 years until broken by the F-15 Eagle in 1975
· First aircraft to achieve a sustained altitude of 66,443.8 ft.
· First aircraft to fly from Los Angeles to New York in 2 hours and 49 minutes
· Largest production run of any supersonic fighter built in the United States (more than 5,000 aircraft in 20 model configurations, including nation-specific configurations)
· First production aircraft to make extensive use of titanium
· First fighter with pulse Doppler radar with look-down and shoot-down capability
· First fighter to concurrently serve multiple purposes for multiple military services (U.S. Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps; and 11 foreign military services)
· Only fighter ever to fly concurrently with both U.S. aerobatics flight demMay 24,
· · Camouflage paint began appearing on USAF aircraft late in 1964, and all operational F-4Cs soon sported the new look. Inflight refueling was a standard element of Phantom operations
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She's a great plane. I'd actually like to see us by some
F-15Ks, just as a backup. Once we have air dominance the
F-15 is one helluva bomb truck. And it's going to be the first to get the SDB. The K model is particularly interesting as it is Harpoon capable. I consdier the USN slightly deficient in ASMs since they retired the Harpoon, and I'd like to have the USAF fill the gap with an F-15 rather than a B-52.
You'll see F-15s around for another 15 years at least.
BeHoldAPaleHorse, I would disagree with your characterization of air superiority asa extremely marginal and little used capability, as I am sure any of our troops on the ground who are currently immune from air attack would as well.
There is a reason air to air combat has become increasingly rare. Enemies will not send their aircraft or helicopters against us even if they have them, because they well know what will happen to them. There was a reason the Iraqi air force fled to Iran in the first Gulf War. There were some capable aircraft that could have been used against our warships or our troops. But they hightailed it.
Forgive my impreciseness. We DO routinely pit our pilots and planes against those of other nations, at often prohibititve odds, in TRAINING EXERCISES. I made the fallacious assumption that anyone familiar with the subject would understand that is exactly what I meant. I needed to be more specific. And I know that we do, as I have stood on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier as foreign planes roared overhead in mock combat and attacks. Perhaps your military experiences are different from mine, though.
I would also disagree with this statement. Even if, as you say, we are not the only ones who can afford it (which is a bit at odds with your earlier characterizations that we cannot afford it and will go broke trying), other countries will attempt to have the means to gain Air Superiority whether they have the means to do it or not. The Soviet Union was a good example of a country that went broke trying. They couldn't afford it, but if we had a shooting war with them, you can bet Air Superiority for the USA was not going to be a given.
The same is true for Communist China. They may or may not be able to afford it, but that will not stop them from developing aircraft that may drop cluster bombs on OUR troops in a shooting war, or firing off a missle at one of our Aegis cruisers.
Excuse my typing, you said "We are the only ones who CAN afford it..."
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