Posted on 07/01/2005 9:55:00 AM PDT by Rhadaghast
May 11, 2005 Host: Vic Eliason Topic: False Doctrine Guest: David DiCanio Description: Dr. David DiCanio is Pastor of Columbine Free Presbyterian Church in Columbine, Colorado, and is involved in Christian Media, which produces television-style documentaries on religious trends and movements. Vic Eliason presents two audio cuts. One features Robert Schuller being interviewed by Dr. David DiCanio after giving a keynote address at the 2004 National Association of Evangelicals meeting. The other cut features Robert Schuller interviewing Billy Graham. The two discuss their views concerning how people are saved.
Dr. DiCanio interacts with callers to discuss the opinions expressed by Schuller and Graham and the current move of some leaders in Christianity to preach a gospel that teaches salvation apart from a conscious, biblical awareness of Christ as the only way to God.
Contact Info: info@thechristianmedia.com www.thechristianmedia.com
Rare recordings of great preachers of the past are posted by Dr. DiCanio's church at
http://www.sermonaudio.com/columbine Listen: RealAudio Windows Media
Graham has fallen away from orthodox Christianity.
And, those who say these quotes are isolated are wrong.
He has said this heresy for years.
May 31, 1997 interview with Robert Schuller: "I've met people in various parts of the world...that have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God. So, there you have it. The world's most famous evangelist teaches that no one needs Jesus to be saved and enter the Kingdom of Heaven. They're already members of the Body of Christ whether they know it or not! All they have to do is believe in a God."
"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost--were going to hell. I no longer believe that. I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God--through nature, for instance." (McCall Magazine Jan. 1987).
"I respect other paths to God," (Billy Graham, Parade Magazine, Oct 20th 1996)
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IOW, all you need to do is believe in a God to be saved. You don't need Jesus.
Frankly, I am willing to accept that God can save anybody he wants to even if they do not accept Christ. The Jews who had faith in God were saved because they had faith in God, and Christ was the Word involved in creation. Christ is God, not just the Son. So, in effect, the OT saints had faith in Christ, too, though they did not realize it. But, Graham goes far beyond this and says that God WILL save anyone who has never heard of Jesus Christ. This is NOT a position that can be proven from Scripture.
There is no Scriptural support for the idea that one today will go to heaven if they believe in any sort of heathen god, or as Graham put it, "other paths to God." No, you must believe in the one true God, which is only the Christian God. Not the Buddhist God. Not the Muslim or the Hindu. There is a reason why the Jews of today are not saved. They reject Jesus Christ, one of the members of the trinity, so in effect the Jews do not believe in the one true God either because their God is missing one of the members of the trinity.
If Scripture said those who only believe in a god will be saved, then orthodox Christianity has missed something. Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life. NO MAN.....NO MAN comes to the father except through him. NOBODY.
Scripture doesn't say there are exceptions for that poor native in Africa who has never heard the Gospel. If he hasn't heard the Gospel, he is going to hell because he doesn't believe in the truth. It doesn't matter that he hasn't heard it. Persisting in a rejection of Christ will result in damnation. And, even if you haven't heard the Gospel, Romans 1 makes abundantly clear you still are guilty before God because nature itself cries out the truth of God, including the trinity...
There is nothing in Scripture that indicates otherwise.
Eventually, Romans 11 or so indicates that God will deal more with the Jews and even perhaps save all of them, but they are not saved as of yet because they have REJECTED Christ just like everybody, so their understanding of the one true God is flawed. And, even those who have never heard of Christ, reject in their hearts because they choose evil or false religions.
Billy Graham is outside orthodox Christianity on this matter.
Yes, I should have mentioned earlier I couldn't listen! Sorry I wasn't clear about that.
There are people posting on this thread, claiming to be christian, that think salvation can come without faith in Jesus Christ. Some of them think that if unbelievers have never heard the gospel message, they will automatically go to heaven anyway...so, why would they want to have missionaries...it would mean that some would hear and reject, sending them to hell...if only they hadn't heard, all would have been ok. See?
If you don't understand Jesus Christ, one of the persons of the trinity, your understanding of GOD is incomplete, which means you still are persisting in a rejection of what all of nature testifies in Romans 1, the truth that there is a God. Therefore, you are still guilty and under condemnation.
It is only liberal denominations that confess a non-Christian can be saved in this period of grace.
Common grace doesn't save.
Reincarnation as a cow is not a Hindu's goal.
Hindus also have no problem admitting that other religions might offer their own ways to salvation/God/Heaven/etc. In the Bhagavad Gita, God as Krishna explicitly states that men come to him through many paths.
Some Hindus worship Jesus as a god among many - or as one way among many. I've read the New Testament and the Koran and I'm still not sure why Christianity and Islam have such a problem with the concept and insist on being considered the only right way.
Personally, I think it's all nonsense, but if you insist on believing, you might as well be tolerant about others' beliefs. If Graham actually said that Christ might not be the only way to salvation, kudos to him.
I tend to believe most, if not all, of what you say, but I acknowledge that what I believe, I believe by faith. That faith is the faith of a frail human being in a God who is infinite and all-knowing, and all-righteous. No one of us can KNOW how God might treat those who have not heard the name of Jesus. Our faith must direct us, but we must always understand that it is by faith we believe, not by earthly "knowledge."
Catholic teaching is that some virtuous individuals, perhaps many of them, such as virtuous pagans or let's say virtuous Buddhists, can be saved, even though they do not know Christ consciously. But they listen to their hearts and consciences and do the best they know how.
Even though they don't consciously know Christ, Christ knows them, and can offer His grace to them.
One biblical indication that this principle follows is that it is that Abraham, Moses, and other virtuous Hebrews are said to be in heaven. They did not know Christ consciously, but they had faith in God and Christ saved them retroactively. See also St. Paul's words concerning the ancient "heroes of faith." From the viewpoint of eternity, all time is present time, and Christ's saving sacrifice can just as well extend backward into the past as forward into the future.
But it is just plain wrong in the traditional Christian view to say that there can be any salvation except through Christ. His saving sacrifice and offered grace are the only means of salvation.
PROOF POSITIVE.
Association with the Clintons will corrupt any mind!!!
According to the tape I listened to, Graham supposedly made these comments much earlier in time, e.g., well before his current (alleged) mental decline.
"Without faith there is no salvation."
So a person who never heard Christ's name and dies is automatically sent to Hell? What kind of loving God does that?
Exactly. I've heard Graham say that exact opposite many times. Can't imagine he's going to change his mind now.
I am having some trouble with the 3 quotes and the way you link them. Saying that he is discussing salvation in all the quotes doesnt make sense to me.
First. People have come to believe in a God. Whats the problem with that. Doesnt look like he's discussing salvation to me. BTW, where should the ending quotes be. Do you have them misplaced?
Second: This one gives me the most problems. But I can only assume he's remaining consistent with himself, so he's discussing a way for people to recognize God and from that find salvation.
Third: It doesnt look like he's discussing salvation. He's only saying again what he's said before. People can learn of God in different ways.
Dont try and condem me or convict me...the Spirit will do that. If its in you please provide some thoughts so I can continue to learn.
Indeed.
What kind of loving God lets anyone go to hell? Is that your point?
He lets those go to Hell who made the decision to go there by not accepting Christ.
A person who never heard the Word can't make the decision.
I sincerely doubt Billy Graham has been *lying* to us all these years. Others I have doubts about, but not Graham.
bookmark
Wow.Just wow.Red state America is gonna have a few discussions around the picnic table this weekend for sure over this.
I am going to think about all the people that are going to be with the Lord in Heaven because of Billy Graham. I didn't hear him deny Jesus nor did I hear him say there is another way to Heaven. If he did say that, then there must be something wrong with him physically or mentally. Thanks to Billy for all the years he has preached salvation through Jesus. As a believer I know there is no other way than through Jesus, He said it!
If I may.
No, he's asking what kind of loving God judges someone under the law when he has not heard of Christs sacrifice for his sins.
Clearly, he isn't speaking "for Catholics".
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