Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.
This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.
There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.
Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.
Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."
What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.
politeness bump
So now "open carry" equals "homicide"?
You said that, not me.
From the beginning of this post, I have made it clear that I support carry. What I said is that if can't tell the difference between punks that need to be taught a lesson and loud kids, you should consider not carrying.
If you have poor judgment, the gun on your hip is as much a danger to you as it is to the general public. Let me make this clear, I am not talking about outlawing guns, I am talking about introspection, look it up in the dictionary.
What are you trying to argue with me? CJ was wrong and I have a feeling he will realize it when the adrenaline wears off. You seem to have alot of anger at these loud kids, what is your excuse. Like I said, I think some of this has to do with unresolved issues.
I have been shot at, and I have taken care of more people with gunshot wounds that I can count. I have also had my hand on a colt grip when the ignorant SOB in front of me had no idea he was about one breath away from eternity. I am a true conservative, and sometimes being a conservative means I do what is right, not what feels right.
Shooting kids over making noise is not right. Creating a situation where he may have had to shoot the kids because of poor discretion is wrong also.
I do think that people are more polite if they know that the people they, without sidearms present, are offending, are being offended.
I think that the sight of a sidearm on someone's hip reminds them not to be asses.
ok, I'm moving. Outof Los Angeles that is.
Like I said, there is a contigent of folks here that despises the thought of an "average" citizen being on equal footing with agents of the state, as is the case with open carry. There's more than a contingent, be sure of that. Anyone with a (d) behind their name pretty much falls into your stated contingent.
That's the point. He didn't shoot anyone. He did nothing illegal.
This dude was using his 9 to bully. He basically pretended to be a cop to get his way. Being drunk, 21+, and in a Waffle House or Denny's in the early morning is almost a right of passage where I come from. If the management of the restaurant had no problem with these kids, then this dude was waaaayyyyy out of line.
He didn't shoot anyone! What part of that don't people understand?
Many attitudes here are indicative of just how ingrained the anti-gun (or more broadly, statist) culture is in America, even among gun-owners. (I'm not necessarily talking about you, just making a general observation). To me, that is a far bigger issue than trying to second guess non-criminal, third-party acts 2000 miles away.
There was a time in this country where citizens could (and did) carry guns openly without fear of harassment from the state. Americans could even bring guns on planes and their children could bring them to school.
Today, even "conservative NRA members" overwhelmingly oppose guns in schools and on planes. I've even seen posters here (and on gun forums) support prison terms for honest citizens that forgot about an unchecked gun in their baggage at the airport.
With respect to carrying guns, many so-called "pro-RKBA" folks are adamantly opposed to open carry and support concealed carry only with prior permission from the state.
Many pro-2nd types also have the mindset that because we have guns, we must surrender other Rights, such as going out to eat at 4:30 in the morning (as one poster on this thread stated), or going to the "wrong" side of town, or talking a midnight walk, or even attending a meeting and getting up to speak while armed.
Other gun owners are even afraid to talk to friends or co-workers about their "hobby"; or even afraid to let a neighbor see them armed. Are these the men that are going to save the Republic from tyranny?
Many even suggested he should just call the cops. When did we reach the point in this country where a man is expected to contact the state before personally addressing something? This only acts to enhance the power of the state while simelataneously decreasing trust between individuals. In this case, a man had a problem with a group of people and he went over and talked to them about it. The problem was solved and nobody got hurt. Yet most folks are giving him hell for it?
As for "intimidation", I find it laughable that hundreds of folks here are apparently intimidated by middle-aged man lawfully and peaceably carrying a firearm. If you want to see real "intimidation", look at what the state threatens to do (and DOES do) to folks that make an honest mistake on their taxes or violates one of the millions of other bueracratic edicts on the books. If you want to be intimidated, look at how the cops are dressing and acting today. Look at the attitude of those in power hellbent on turning America into a Soviet-style police state.
The statists are laughing their asses off at us. We have an organization of 4 million people (only AARP has more), and have accomplished nothing at the national level in the past decade. Compare this to what smaller groups of only a few thousand or less, such as radical feminists, have accomplished. On a per-capita basis, the NRA is probably the least effective organization in the history of mankind. And it's because of this stupid, submissive mindset. (One interesting sidenote here is that the most effective gun organization in America right now is the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL), is also the one that is most often accused of being "in your face" especially with regards to open carry. They managed to get a RAT governor to sign a dozen or so pro-gun bills last year).
Well, that's my rant today. It's late, so it's not as coherent as I'd like it to be, but I think it makes my point.
In closing, I would recommend that everyone on this thread go out and read "Nation of Cowards" by Jeff Snyder and "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" by Jeff Cooper. They address the "mindset" issues, which ulimately are more important than anything else.
I'm not torn. Look at the original post. CJ was looking for a fight. His defense is he was outnumbered and they were young (it won't work, they were not trying to accost him or anyone else in the diner). Their offense, they were loud.
The young ones were at a table, they were not harassing other patrons and it was 4:30 in the morning.
If you are showing your side arm to enforce your own sensibilities, don't be surprised if someone gets frightened and uses theirs. "Only a psycho would circle our table showing his gun over noise and I thought it was Kaleen TX all over again!"
Guns are not toys, they are not to be taken lightly, nor are they a solution to minor deportment problems. If the kids had been hard core jerks, they would have made fun of CJ's antics.
"What you gonna do, shoot us while we're eating?"
He made a point of scaring some kids. Who's the jerk?
DK
Ten paying customers beats one paying customer any day of the week. The owner could have asked you to leave.
If I were the owner, I'd tell CJ to not bother coming back, enforcible by trespass laws.
$70 table vs. $7 patron, I feel sorry for the waitress working the crappy tip shift. She has to deal with nuts drunks and JERKS.
DK
I just saw this thread.
I bet it has become incredibly contentious downthread.....
bump
and as a redoubt against tyranny.
Well Swami,
Your's were the best posts on a thread I missed.
Seems like there are a buttload of new FReepers I've never seen before and a bunch of them don't know a whole lot about guns or what that right means.
What CJ did is not my style either and neither is Waffle House at 4:30 AM.
Problem is today that there are so many crap raised young people who think nothing of a fisticuff or shootout with someone old enuff to be their daddy....whom they and thier mom probably don't know who he is anyhow.
One has to be careful....I have learned that youngbloods of any stripe will jump a middle aged guy for nothing...something I woulda never done.
The W-Words are the worst...worse than the punks they mimic.
Anyhow....guess I'm ambivalent.
But...one thing for sure.....that girly 9MM needs to go.
Matt is chillin....I'd like to hear his view....I'm guessing he'd go for caution.
Fair and balanced.....:o)
Yep Travis said he was a sabatical for a week so he missed this one.....
I have carried a Browning High Power when out of the country and have recently been playing IDPA games with it but my first love, tried and true is the 1911A1 and the 45 ACP. Albeit I have alledgedly been seen with a glock 21 as the Wally World Invitational was held a few weeks ago and magazine capacity caused me some concern......
When out and about these days I avoid "all" trouble but if it finds me and I cannot elude or evade it then I will engage it in a medevil manner to hopefully live another day.
Hope yer feeling better these days !
Stay safe !
My dad had a High Power...I never could shoot it worth a damn.
I had an early 92SB that I could shoot great.
I feel good....been the hottest summer since 1951 here in nashville and I look forward to autumn.
Glad to hear it WD....Clearly that fine nursing yer getting !
I had Cylinder and Slide take a new 40 S&W BHP and convert it back to 9MM so I could shoot a "whole lot" of the +P stuff in our shoothouse. I have always shot the highpowers really well yet they are / were not designed for the +P diet. Modern projectile design and loads make it a solid stopper. Hits count and with it I can make hits...all minute of torso at speed !
The Glock 21's grip is a bit too large for me yet I can handle it well too . A friend has suggested a "grip reduction" process by a hammer monkey in Arizona that is done really well. Reeder I think is the moniker on the monkey. I like the 14 rounds the G21 carries yet it is still combat tupperware but heh ! It works well so far .....:o)
Till then I keep the old Clarke Meltdown 1911A1 stuffed in the waistband for grocery getter duty !
Stay safe !
Go read the post I referenced....or go bother someone else.
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