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JORGENSON EXPLODES FAIRTAX MYTH (FR Exclusive)
self | August 25, 2005 | RobFromGa

Posted on 08/24/2005 9:40:44 PM PDT by RobFromGa

August 24, 2005

U.S. Representative John Linder
1026 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone: 770-232-3005
Fax: 770-232-2909
Copy: Neal Boortz, WSB Radio,
Dr. Dale Jorgenson, Harvard University

Dear Representative Linder:

I wrote to you two days ago regarding what I consider to be serious misrepresentations of the Fair Tax plan contained in your book, “The FairTax Book”. On page 2, you state “Let’s agree up front that this book is about honesty” and I intend to hold you at your word. Since that time, I have been in contact with Dr. Jorgenson in an attempt to clarify his understanding of this Plan and his calculation of expected price declines.

On pp. 22-23, your book states: “An extensive study of tax costs was completed a few years ago by Dr. Dale Jorgenson, then chairman of the Harvard Economics Department. On average, Jorgenson concluded, 22 percent of the price paid for a consumer product represents embedded taxes.”

You then went on to show a Chart (Fig 5.1) which shows the expected price decline without embedded costs for various goods and services as prepared by Jorgenson during his study.

On page 55, you go on to explain that these embedded taxes are “in addition to the money taken out of your check in income and payroll taxes.”

On page 59, you again invoke Dr. Jorgenson’s study: “If you’re looking for scholarly support for the proposition that prices will fall once the embedded taxes are removed, we can check back with [Jorgenson’s] “The Economic Impact of the National Retail Sales Tax” and you quote his report:

Since producers would no longer pay taxes on profits or other forms of capital income under the NRST and workers would no longer pay taxes on wages, prices received by producers… would fall by an average of twenty percent”

In this statement, Jorgenson seems to say that one of the reasons for the price drop at the producer level was the elimination of the tax on wages paid to workers. So, naturally if the business is going to realize this benefit it must reduce the workers gross pay be the amount that is currently being paid in the form of income and payroll taxes. This only makes sense because how can the business reduce costs if it gives the worker tax savings to the worker?

Later on page 59, you state: “Once the FairTax takes effect, you’ll be receiving 100 percent of every paycheck, with no withholding of federal income taxes, Social security taxes, or Medicare taxes and you’ll be paying just about the same price for T-shirts and other consumer goods and services that you were paying before the FairTax.”

Dr. Jorgenson’s report clearly showed that under his study the worker would not get their complete paycheck, because if he/she did, there would be no cost savings to the business and therefore no price drop associated with worker taxes.

You continue this theme on page 83: “Remember that the poor, along with everyone else—will no longer have Social Security taxes or Medicare taxes removed from their paychecks. Whatever they earn, they get on payday. For most of those we categorize as poor, this would mean an immediate 25 to 30 percent increase in their take-home pay.”

On page 84, you make it clear though that even though the workers will keep all of their paychecks for a big raise, you still believe that because of “the disappearance of the embedded taxes, the total price paid for consumer goods will remain very nearly the same”.

By assuming these two things together, you are misrepresenting Jorgenson’s report and double-counting the tax savings, first by giving them to the worker as a pay raise, and then at the same time assuming that there was a cost savings to the business.

On page 85 you make it clear the worker will get the pay raise.

And then on page 111, you tie it all together with a Quick Review in which you erroneously assert that “Here’s what happens when we pass and implement the FairTax plan:”

“We start collecting 100 percent of our earnings on our paycheck.

“We all get virtual raises, since payroll taxes are no longer siphoned from our checks.

“The prices of consumer goods and services remain essentially the same, with the removal of the embedded taxes compensating for the added consumption tax.”

Dr. Jorgenson’s report seemed pretty clear to me, but I felt it was necessary to ask him directly what he meant so I sent him this e-mail:

At 09:29 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:

Dear Dr. Jorgenson,

I am a private US citizen who is concerned that the FairTax proponents are misrepresenting your conclusions. Would you please comment on the attached letter I sent to Mr. Boortz and Rep. Linder? I think that they are being dishonest to imply that the wage earner will keep his entire paycheck, while at the same time businesses will be able to reduce costs? Your March 1996 testimony stated, in part:

5.Since producers would no longer pay taxes on profits or other forms of capital income under the NRST and workers would no longer pay taxes on wages, prices received by producers, shown in the sixth chart, would fall by an average of twenty percent

Are you expecting business to reap a benefit from the taxes that that the worker no longer pays? It certainly sounds like that is part of where you see the business reducing its costs.

Rob

Dr. Jorgenson responded:

From: Dale Jorgenson [mailto:djorgenson@harvard.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:28 AM
To: Rob xxx
Re: Fair Tax- Is your 1995-6 Testimony being misrepresented by Boortz/Linder book?

August 24

Dear Rob,

A more reasonable interpretation of my 1996 testimony is that workers would keep that after-tax pay; producers' prices would fall, but retail prices would be increased by the national retail sales tax. Any gains by workers and investors would be the result of increase economic efficiency.

[He then went on to recommend his book called LIFTING THE BURDEN, about another tax reform plan he calls Efficient Taxation]

Best,
Dale

I wanted to be perfectly clear what he was saying, so I asked him to clarify his email:

At 06:41 PM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:
Dr. Jorgenson,

Excuse me for my lack of understanding of your answer, when you say "workers would keep that after-tax pay" are you saying that if they are making $1000 a week now, and paying $200 payroll+income taxes now, that under the FairTax you were assuming that workers would get paid $800 and keep all of that? Or are you saying that you meant they would make $1000 under the FairTax?

Regards,
Rob xxx

Dr Jorgenson responded:

August 24

Dear Rob,

I am saying that the worker would continue to receive the after-tax amount of $800. Prices received by producers would decline to cover the cost of after-tax wages to workers and after-tax dividends and interest to investors. However, taxes paid at the retail level would include the Fair Tax.

Best,
Dale

So, Dr. Jorgenson, whose report you are relying on to support your calculation of embedded taxes, is stating that in making those embedded tax calculations he was not assuming that the worker would keep his current after-tax amount, NOT that the worker would keep all of his current gross pay-check. By reducing the gross pay of the worker to the current after-tax amount, the producers would see a cost reduction that would allow them to reduce selling prices. There would be no increase in take-home pay.

I think you need to carefully review the misrepresentations in your book and offer a retraction and modify subsequent printings to remove these errors. You have spent a large amount of time on this plan, and it is still a viable option for debate even without the bug windfall pay raise for everyone. I would enjoy the opportunity to discuss this with you further if you have questions.

Sincerely,

Rob xxx
xxxxxxx


TOPICS: Government; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boortz; embedded; embeddedtax; fairtax; hr25; jorgenson; liar; linder; nrst; retraction; robpropaganda; scam; taxes; taxfraud; taxreform
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To: Always Right
Because there was nothing false about my arguement.

Like hell there isn't and you include it is EVERY post you make!

The costs imposed on the U.S. economy are FAR more than the taxes themselves and YOU know it, Dr. Jorgenson knows it and most everyone else knows it!

201 posted on 08/25/2005 8:26:16 AM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: sitetest
But, that's the good doctor's theory, so what can we say?

I have the feeling what the good doctor was trying (very poorly) to say is that after taking home the gross pay as opposed to net, and then deducting the sales tax, the average worker/consumer would still have the same "disposable" income.

202 posted on 08/25/2005 8:27:11 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: RobFromGa
Sounds like furious backpedaling to me.

Looks like a frog, sounds like a frog, jumps like a frog...

;o)

203 posted on 08/25/2005 8:29:32 AM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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To: Smokin' Joe
"Counting on business to "pass on the savings" is pretty starry-eyed imho, too."

you don't understand the economics of FREE ENTERPRISE very well, do you????

Every business looks for cost/price advantages to compete against other businesses.....

Example.....Target Passes on a few percent of the savings to get even or below Walmart prices.....is Walmart gonna just sit there and watch Target gain Market Share.....ughhhh.....NO....they will match Targets price reductions or even go beyond Targets lower prices......

Only takes a couple of rounds of this back and forth to pass on the complete savings to the Consumer...... I am am in business and i can honestly say that I would attempt to hold the savings as long as I could but I know that it would only be temporary as I my competitors used "the savings" as away to cut into my business.....

....give me my ENTIRE PAY CHECK, a 10% reduction in prices, NO IRS, UNTAXED INTEREST, NO ESTATE TAXES, NO CAPITAL GAINS taxes and I'll show you a WEALTHIER more PRODUCTIVE and FREE AMERICAN!!!!

204 posted on 08/25/2005 8:30:27 AM PDT by is_is (VPD of Lcpl Daniel - USMC - Iraq)
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To: sitetest

Would that apply to used cars v. new cars as well. Detroit will scream bloody murder over this if that is the case.


205 posted on 08/25/2005 8:32:34 AM PDT by chronic_loser
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To: Always Right
The answer no. The analysis which says price will fall 20% assumed your gross pay would be reduced, but your net pay would stay the same.

So why should any current wage earner embrace this scam?

Suddenly he is not only paying the same income and payroll taxes as before, but he has a sparkling new and HUGE onerous consumption tax. Even on the sale of homes!

D'OH!

206 posted on 08/25/2005 8:34:30 AM PDT by Publius6961 (Liberal level playing field: If the Islamics win we are their slaves..if we win they are our equals.)
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To: Ditto

Dear Ditto,

"I have the feeling what the good doctor was trying (very poorly) to say is that after taking home the gross pay as opposed to net, and then deducting the sales tax, the average worker/consumer would still have the same 'disposable' income."

Well, actually, I had a few minutes last night, and I spent them reading a little from one of Dr. Jorgenson's books about taxation. From what I understood, one purpose of the NSRT is to make gross wages = net wages. Right now, gross wages (your nominal salary plus the costs of your benefits and the employer's side of payroll taxes) are significantly higher than your net wages ("take-home" pay).

Dr. Jorgenson is saying, you will continue to get the same net pay that you've been receiving under the old system. But now, that will also be your gross pay. Thus, your gross pay will be reduced to match your net pay, you won't pay any income taxes, and the employer can lower the cost of products and services offered by the saved tax amount.

"Disposable income" is a trickier term. I believe it properly refers to the amount of your income you have after you pay all your necessities. Your mortgage doesn't come out of your disposable income. Going to the movies does.


sitetest


207 posted on 08/25/2005 8:36:41 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Bigun; ancient_geezer; phil_will1

Dear Bigun,

Well, Dr. Jorgenson posits an approximately 20+% decline in the general price level. He is also positing a 20+% decline in gross wages, as the saved personal income, corporate income, and individual investor income taxes are passed through as savings to the consumer.

It appears that Dr. Jorgenson is saying that the price level decline will be roughly equal to the decline in gross wages.

Dr. Jorgenson does posit that the changes proposed will eventually result in additional economic growth - so, in a sense, that is a cost imposed by the current tax system.

But he is not arguing that the price decline will be paid for from "cascaded embedded taxes and tax costs" or whatever.

It's straight-up: Employees no longer pay income taxes, but they don't get those taxes back. Prices decline by the amount of those taxes. And then go back up after the application of the NSRT.

All we've done is play musical chairs with the taxes. Instead of paying them at the point of income generation, we pay them at the point of consumption. But from the change alone, folks don't gain any additional income or purchasing power. Eliminating "cascading embedded costs/taxes/delusions" isn't what gets us to a better world. At least not directly at all.

In fact, this model is much more sane than what had been proposed by many of the NSRTers here. It is clear how and why it will work.

As well, after clearing away the delusions of some, that folks would experience a net increase in purchasing power, virtually overnight, of 10%, 20%, or more, we can now debate the real merits and demerits of the system.

In terms of whether it would be better to give the taxes paid by or on behalf of workers back to the workers, or to use them to reduce the overall price levels, my own belief is that Dr. Jorgenson's path makes more sense.

I think it's problematic to achieve, but clearly the preferable method (if practically achievable).

I still don't think this is a good idea in an economy where the federal government absorbs 20% of GDP, and I'm adamantly opposed to its implementation PRIOR to the ratification of an amendment that spells out the repeal of the 16th amendment.

But Dr. Jorgenson's remarks, by vitiating the claims of some NSRTers here at FR, delivers the proposed system from the realm of lunacy to something worth debating, and perhaps trying to improve upon.


sitetest


208 posted on 08/25/2005 8:38:10 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Bigun
Like hell there isn't and you include it is EVERY post you make!

Could you at least show me exactly what I said was wrong? What I stated is consistant to what Dr. Jorgenson said. What you are doing is trying to change the subject by debating fuzzy areas. This is black and white. Dr. Jorgenson's study is being grossly misrepresented by fair taxers.

209 posted on 08/25/2005 8:38:21 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: chronic_loser

Dear chronic_loser,

Yes, that applies to cars, as well.

The transition would be, at very best, difficult.


sitetest


210 posted on 08/25/2005 8:39:56 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: lewislynn
Why didn't the chest pounding Congressman

Linder wrote the bill. He should know what it says and what it does.

211 posted on 08/25/2005 8:44:00 AM PDT by carenot (Proud member of The Flying Skillet Brigade)
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To: Publius6961
Suddenly he is not only paying the same income and payroll taxes as before, but he has a sparkling new and HUGE onerous consumption tax. Even on the sale of homes!

The argument is that the consumer already pays for all those business taxes now. If you take out all the taxes, businesses will lower the price of their goods. In theory everything should come out equal with the taxes just being more visible and perhaps some savings in compliance costs. It is an interesting theory, but I can't see how it would work out in practice. I don't see how rents go down. I don't see how you convince employees to take a pay cut. And giving a monthly rebate to every family seems like a huge bureaucracy in the making.

212 posted on 08/25/2005 8:45:45 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Sensei Ern

I do not support a tax on the individual at the federal level in ANY manner

Interesting, the founders and authors of the Constitution, saw it differently. In fact that was the dominant factor in throwing out the Articles of Confederation and proposing the Constitution in its place.

 

Federalist #34:

Federalist #39:

Anti-Federalist Papers #3 NEW CONSTITUTION CREATES A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT;

Federalist #45:

 

If the federal government cannot support a task by tariffs on imports and business tax, then cease that task.

Who do you think pays for tariffs and business taxes? Clue: it isn't the nation importing goods or business providing goods and services we pay for as consumers.

Furthermore why would we want to put our nation's financing at the mercy of foreign nation's export policies? Imagine China threatening not to provide exports and affecting government revenues, holding us hostage to their good graces :O/

Federalist #35:

"if the jurisdiction of the national government, in the article of revenue, should be restricted to particular objects, it would naturally occasion an undue proportion of the public burdens to fall upon those objects. Two evils would spring from this source: the oppression of particular branches of industry; and an unequal distribution of the taxes, as well among the several States as among the citizens of the same State."

"The maxim that the consumer is the payer, is so much oftener true than the reverse of the proposition, "

"When they are paid by the merchant they operate as an additional tax upon the importing State, whose citizens pay their proportion of them in the character of consumers. "

"Suppose, as has been contended for, the federal power of taxation were to be confined to duties on imports, it is evident that the government, for want of being able to command other resources, would frequently be tempted to extend these duties to an injurious excess. There are persons who imagine that they can never be carried to too great a length; since the higher they are, the more it is alleged they will tend to discourage an extravagant consumption, to produce a favorable balance of trade, and to promote domestic manufactures. But all extremes are pernicious in various ways. Exorbitant duties on imported articles would beget a general spirit of smuggling; which is always prejudicial to the fair trader, and eventually to the revenue itself: they tend to render other classes of the community tributary, in an improper degree, to the manufacturing classes, to whom they give a premature monopoly of the markets; they sometimes force industry out of its more natural channels into others in which it flows with less advantage; and in the last place, they oppress the merchant, who is often obliged to pay them himself without any retribution from the consumer. When the demand is equal to the quantity of goods at market, the consumer generally pays the duty; but when the markets happen to be overstocked, a great proportion falls upon the merchant, and sometimes not only exhausts his profits, but breaks in upon his capital."

Federalist #30:

"The more intelligent adversaries of the new Constitution ...qualify ... by a distinction between what they call INTERNAL and EXTERNAL taxation. The former they would reserve to the State governments; the latter, which they explain into commercial imposts, or rather duties on imported articles, they declare themselves willing to concede to the federal head. This distinction, however, would violate the maxim of good sense and sound policy, which dictates that every POWER ought to be in proportion to its OBJECT; and would still leave the general government in a kind of tutelage to the State governments, inconsistent with every idea of vigor or efficiency. Who can pretend that commercial imposts are, or would be, alone equal to the present and future exigencies of the Union? Taking into the account the existing debt, foreign and domestic, upon any plan of extinguishment which a man moderately impressed with the importance of public justice and public credit could approve, in addition to the establishments which all parties will acknowledge to be necessary, we could not reasonably flatter ourselves, that this resource alone, upon the most improved scale, would even suffice for its present necessities.

"To say that deficiencies may be provided for by requisitions upon the States, is on the one hand to acknowledge that this system cannot be depended upon, and on the other hand to depend upon it for every thing beyond a certain limit. "

 

James Madison, Elliots Debates Vol 3 p128:


213 posted on 08/25/2005 8:48:01 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: RobFromGa

HI Rob,

I don't know if I can wade through the whole thread of bickering, but from reading you original post one of the things that it appears you missed is that while the worker recieves a check without his Social Security witholding taken out (an increase) you note that this doesn't become a savings to the employer. While that part is true, there is a like amount: the employers' contribution, that is every bit as large, and if the employer isn't paying that, then the employer does reap a savings.

I don't really have an axe to grind as I haven't formed a studied opinion on this as I see the tax code so embedded politically, this thing will never get out of committee even if it is introduced.


214 posted on 08/25/2005 8:48:04 AM PDT by KC Burke (Men of intemperate minds can never be free....)
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To: carenot
Linder wrote the bill. He should know what it says and what it does.
He didn't and he obviously doesn't.

David R. Burton and Dan R. Mastromarco are the authors of the fairtax, not Linder....

215 posted on 08/25/2005 8:49:06 AM PDT by lewislynn (Status quo today is the result of eliminating the previous status quo. Be careful what you wish for)
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To: is_is
you don't need to pound the table for my benefit. I am already on board.(smile)

I think the issue at hand concerns short term revenue projections for the transition to a national sales tax. If i understand the claims from the website, the net pay will become the gross pay, and we will have deflationary pressure, as businesses will have room to cut prices from the "windfall" of moneys they once paid out in employee witholding.

Some have pointed out that this is NOT the imagined scenario of the economist who originally posited the system. The internet being what it is, this has been accompanied by a lot of "THEY ARE LIARS!" vs "YOU ARE A CLOSET CONFISCATORY TAX LOVER!" crap that always swirls around. Rob from GA says that he just wants a good open debate, and I think that it is actually noble to want all the facts out on the table. To start out with a title like JORGENSON EXPLODES FAIRTAX MYTH, though is kind of like standing up on the table and pissing in my soup in order to warn me that canned soup already has too much salt. It is the internet, though. Take everything you see on a bulletin board with caution...., at least that is my advice....., which you should take with caution.

216 posted on 08/25/2005 8:49:52 AM PDT by chronic_loser
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To: Always Right

"Yes it does add up.

I appreciate your support, but it does not add up. Never did."

We must have had a misunderstanding. What I meant by saying that it adds up is that it adds up that the government is trying to decieve us and screw us with smoke and mirrors to raise more taxes.


217 posted on 08/25/2005 8:51:06 AM PDT by DH
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To: Always Right

Dear Always Right,

"I don't see how rents go down."

Yeah, that one's really problematic.

As the landlord likely derives his income partially, mostly, or even completely tax-free, he has little in tax savings directly to reduce the rent. The largest costs he has are typically the cost of the capital (whether he borrowed the money, or paid cash for the property) and the property taxes and insurance.

I know that a lot of NSRTers claim interest rates will plummet, but frankly, that strikes me as being as plausible that we are all about to get a 25% raise. * chuckle *

I'm skeptical that property taxes will decline. Perhaps eventually there will be a small decline in insurance costs.

I can see that there could be modest declines of a few percent. After all, the landlord can do all the maintenance on a pre-NSRT basis, and that saves 23% of a modest part of his costs.

However, I don't see rents not soaring by 20% - 25% after applying the NSRT.

It's interesting to think about the different effects to the economy, and to individual groups of folks within society, depending on where you send things: whether you send the saved taxes back home with the worker; or whether you send the to the consumer.

Many transactions that are currently tax-free or deferred will become sources of screwing someone. My own example is health insurance, especially the part that is employer-paid.

In order to maintain the ability of the employer to reduce prices by reducing payroll costs (and to do that in proportion, one to the other), the employer cannot take the burden of the 30% tax on the health insurance. For folks with high-cost health insurance that is largely or completely employer-paid, this will represent a significant bite.


sitetest


218 posted on 08/25/2005 8:56:41 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: DH

".....the government is trying to decieve us and screw us with smoke and mirrors to raise more taxes."

"government" is the one entity you can count on to resist the hell out of this. I don't think we would pay MORE taxes here, and I applaud the effort to get the taxes OUT ON THE TABLE in terms of sales taxes rather than taxing income. Anything that taxes consumption rather than production is a good deal in my book. Before I voted for it I would demand the repeal of the 16th amendment, though


219 posted on 08/25/2005 8:57:42 AM PDT by chronic_loser
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To: KC Burke

Dear KC Burke,

Dr. Jorgenson's model does not permit giving the employee side of payroll taxes back to the employee.

It all goes toward price reductions. All taxes currently paid go to price reductions.

Here's the relevant part of the exchange:

RobFromGa: "Excuse me for my lack of understanding of your answer, when you say 'workers would keep that after-tax pay' are you saying that if they are making $1000 a week now, and paying $200 payroll+income taxes now, that under the FairTax you were assuming that workers would get paid $800 and keep all of that? Or are you saying that you meant they would make $1000 under the FairTax?"

Rob is asking - do folks get their old gross pay ($1000) under your model, or their old net pay ($800) that previously had all the taxes taken out?


Dr Jorgenson: "I am saying that the worker would continue to receive the after-tax amount of $800."

All taxes are foregone by the employee and the savings are passed through to the consumer by the employer in the form of reduced prices.


sitetest


220 posted on 08/25/2005 9:01:31 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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