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To: Amos the Prophet; faireturn; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; xzins
You do not understand the history of the period. Hitler's genocide was well known and clearly understood from the mid 30s by every Western leader. We - the Allies - chose to do nothing. The US did nothing. It was not our problem. There was rampant hatred of the Jews throughout Europe and the US. There was no concerted effort on the part of any nation to undermine the genocide.

It’s not clear to me that Hitler’s genocide was well known and clearly understood by himself in the mid 30's, much less by every Western leader. I base this on Hitler’s recorded (1941 - 1944) evening conversations at the dinner table and after dinner. Certainly, Hitler’s persecution of Jews and other ‘inferior’ peoples were known well before fall 1939 and the beginning of the War. Radio reports were full of stories about Brown Shirt rampages in the streets of German cities. William Shirer’s Berlin Diary was published in June of 1941. And, there were newsreel accounts. Once into the war, I’m sure the free western governments (and there weren’t very many of those) were aware of the Nazi’s increasingly intense murderous treatment of Jews and other captive peoples, but I don’t recall all that much was made known to the American people until near the end.

I’ve been following, as best I can, all this conversation about the many nuances of what ‘we’ means in terms of individual v. societal responsibility with respect to that era. It’s all rather interesting, and it serves, I think, to illustrate the complexities involved in the moral issues raised by the experiences of that time.

But, if that era serves to bring any lessons to us today (and I think it brings several), the most important lesson it brings is that you do not go to war only as a last resort. Had the allies called Hitler’s bluff and gone to war in 1938 in response to the ‘Munich crisis’ Europe might have been spared much of the agony of the following six years, and a lot of people, who never even saw life, might be walking around today.

I suspect (and I know of no way to prove this) that the desire to avoid trouble has probably brought as much trouble to the world as has any other calculation.

88 posted on 09/28/2005 10:02:06 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS

YHAOS,
As ever, thank you for your thoughtful observations.
Hitler's politics of genocide were documented in Mein Kampf from the mid 20's. His rise to power through the extensive use of the Brown Shirts created a widely reported reign of terror. His special hatred for the Jews was well known. What I ought to have said was that world leaders who knew how to read the tea leaves understood clearly where all this was going.
To be sure there were ostriches in France, GB and the US who thought it would all just go away. Roosevelt and his administration do not appear to be among them. Churchill certainly was not nor was DeGaul. Tragically, it took at least 5 years for their voices to be heard.
Your observation that war is not necessarily a last resort is well placed. Much ado is made of diplomacy to avoid war. Once war has been declared by one side, as with Germany's Munich crisis, failure to respond accordingly is weakness and leads to defeat.
As with the declaration of war by Muslim extremism much bloodshed could have been avoided if Pres Carter had protected American territory and lives in Iran when the US embassy was assaulted by a mob. The ensuing year of cowardice created a terrorist movement that we are finally waging war against 20 years later.
When trouble comes uninvited through the door an overwhelming response will always halt its advance. Tyrants are never as strong at the beginning as they are after their victims have given them unqualified victory. Put another way, once war has begun war must be the first response of those under attack.


89 posted on 09/29/2005 5:52:43 AM PDT by Louis Foxwell (THIS IS WAR AND I MEAN TO WIN IT.)
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To: YHAOS
I've been following, as best I can, all this conversation about the many nuances of what 'we' means in terms of individual v. societal responsibility with respect to that era. It's all rather interesting, and it serves, I think, to illustrate the complexities involved in the moral issues raised by the experiences of that time.

Those same issues [and I see them as constitutional, not moral issues] are still with us today.

But, if that era serves to bring any lessons to us today (and I think it brings several), the most important lesson it brings is that you do not go to war only as a last resort.

That machiavellian style option is in effect today, in Iraq. Our government made the decision [constitutionally] to wage preventive war there to 'call the bluff' of islamic fundamentalists.

Had the allies called Hitler's bluff and gone to war in 1938 in response to the 'Munich crisis' Europe might have been spared much of the agony of the following six years, and a lot of people, who never even saw life, might be walking around today. I suspect (and I know of no way to prove this) that the desire to avoid trouble has probably brought as much trouble to the world as has any other calculation.

We are in the midst of finding out whether we can prevent a holocast based in the middle east by calling Islam's bluff, and establishing our own base of operations.

Let's hope it works. -- We may have bet our way of life on calling that bluff.

90 posted on 09/29/2005 5:56:11 AM PDT by faireturn
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To: YHAOS
I suspect (and I know of no way to prove this) that the desire to avoid trouble has probably brought as much trouble to the world as has any other calculation.

I agree. Also I agree that the average American probably didn't know much about the Holocaust until the war was over. The news process was quite slow and filtered.

Thank you for your post!

91 posted on 09/29/2005 7:55:53 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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