Posted on 11/16/2005 7:40:32 AM PST by Flavius
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in the mistaken belief that he was a suicide bomber was killed with a type of bullet banned in warfare under international convention, The Daily Telegraph has learned.
The firing of hollow point ammunition into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, is believed to be the first use of the bullets by British police.
Hoolow-point bullets Hollow-point bullets: used at the discretion of police chiefs
It will re-ignite controversy around the shooting, at Stockwell Underground station, south London, on July 22.
Modern hollow point bullets are descendants of the expanding "dum dum" ammunition created by the British in an arsenal of the same name near Calcutta, in India, at the end of the 19th century and outlawed under the Hague Declaration of 1899.
The bullets, which expand and splinter on impact, were available to officers taking part in Operation Kratos, the national police drive against suspected suicide bombers which has been described as a "shoot to kill" policy.
Their issue was sanctioned after research suggested that they were an effective close-quarters ammunition for use against someone about to trigger a suicide bomb.
It is believed the decision was influenced by the tactics used by air marshals on passenger jets - where such bullets are designed to splinter in the body and not burst the fuselage. They have been assessed as posing less risk to people around the suicide bomber than conventional bullets but the effect on victims is devastating.
Jean Charles de Menezes Jean Charles de Menezes
Like the overall Kratos policy, the decision to make dum dum-style bullets available was taken in secret. However, it is understood that the Home Office became aware three years ago that police were considering their use.
Negotiations on possible national guidance are understood to have been inconclusive and the choice of ammunition appears to be at the discretion of police chiefs, not the Home Secretary.
There is no legal prohibition on police use of such ammunition. The Home Office confirmed last night that "chief officers may use whatever ammunition they consider appropriate to meet their operational needs".
It is understood from security sources that hollow point bullets are still available as an option to police firearms teams in Kratos-type cases.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating the shooting during which seven bullets were fired into Mr de Menezes's head and one into his shoulder.
A number of officers, including members of the firearms and surveillance teams and the Scotland Yard commander who ran the operation, Cressida Dick, have been issued with notices that they are subject to inquiries by the IPCC.
Where did you learn this?
LOL! That's what I was thinking. I have a feeling hollow points in this case really didn't matter.
Reminds me of Archie Bunker talking to his daughter about gun control. "Would youse feel better if dey was pushed outa windas?"
Sorry, I am not at liberty to say. I realise that may sound coy or artful and I don't intend it as such. It is, though, factual.
If you shoot a guy in the head seven times at close range, I don't think it matters what kind of bullet you use.
Didn't some Hollywood soap opera idiot die a few years ago when he shot himself in the head with a revolver loaded with .44 blanks?
It would make sense for dense crowds as hollow points often plug up, fail to expand and overpenetrate like full metal jacket.
I'm also pretty skeptical of the performance of the Glasers against hard bone such as a skull especially at grazing angles. Glasers usually leave a very shallow but massive wound in soft tissue but have minimal ability to penetrate hard material.
This very well may explain why the individual was shot so many times.
Briefly considered Glasers for carry but rejected the idea due to many stories of inadequate penetration and failure to stop.
Would be curious to buy some at the next show and see what happens to say a melon behind a 1/2" of glass.
That was Jon Eric Hexum. Fooling around with a .44 loaded with blanks. He didn't realize that the wadding they use in blanks is sufficient to penetrate your skull at the temple, where the bone is thinnest. He pretended he was committing suicide by putting the gun to his temple and pulling the trigger. He was the co-star of Cover Up where he was a secret agent undercover as a male model. The show died shortly after he did.
You're right on the overpenetration risk, plus, in the early days of close-up CT work, we found that full jacket fragmentation just added to the problems.
Glasers usually leave a very shallow but massive wound in soft tissue but have minimal ability to penetrate hard material.
You're clearly a man who knows the business and a drawback with early glasers was that the frangible tip was made of high density polypropylene and, more often than not was filled with fewer pellets. 15-20 teflons encased in a gelatin tip lends itself to an inpact rate of pressure rise which is almost exponential. So, we found it gave optimum penetration with highly effective shock distribution.
This very well may explain why the individual was shot so many times.>/i>
LOL!! No, that was just technique. We teach the police shooters that we train in our tried and tested methodology. In as close as you can, maximum number of rounds down. Job done.
I can see 2 or even 3 rds. to the head but it sounds like this guy emptied the magazine.
What happens when you notice Bad Guy #2 & #3 and you're standing there with your slide locked back?
Not really, he had a few rounds in hand since he was using a Glock 19 and at least two of his immediate back-ups were armed with Sigs. That said, I still have my reservations about how this particular incident went down. The outcome was based on poor intelligence gathering, compounded by lousy surveillance and comms procedures. Set those factors against the prevailing political pressure to "DO SOMETHING" and it's not hard to see why there was a cock-up. The SF back-up teams that were supporting the police on the day should have been given the task (and the choice) of making a soft or a hard arrest.
It's more a question of mindset really. The bobby's job is to apprehend the bad guys and bring them before the courts. The soldier's task (as your own Stormin Norman once aptly put it) is to kill the enemy and break their stuff. When those to psycholgies clash, confusion will reign.
And incidents like these WILL happen again, so long as we continue the dangerous charade of treating a lethal terrorist threat as a purely criminal activity.
Interesting details, thanks for sharing them. I'm a big fan of
Drastic Plastic myself.
If you don't people killed and things destroyed don't send the military.
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