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Civil war erupts over Confederate handbags
DFW ^ | January 6, 2006 | JIM DOUGLAS

Posted on 01/06/2006 12:05:39 PM PST by stainlessbanner

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To: Froufrou
Lincoln didn't end slavery. He didn't even scratch the surface.

No he just shepherded the 13th Amendment through the House and Senate and to the states for ratification.

Just out of curiosity what did Robert Lee, Thomas Jackson or Jefferson Davis to do end slavery? Other than launch their rebellion and lose it, I mean?

281 posted on 01/06/2006 6:01:43 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: AzaleaCity5691
...and a war to protect northern industry at the expense of Southern industy.

What southern industry?

282 posted on 01/06/2006 6:03:07 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: My2Cents
Not according to the Union.

Or the rest of the world for that matter.

283 posted on 01/06/2006 6:04:57 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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Comment #284 Removed by Moderator

To: Blzbba
Did Ike intentionally target citizens or target German factories?

Then Hap Arnold then, who deliberately firebombed Japanese cities trying for the largest amount of damage? And what factory was at ground zero at Nagasaki or Hiroshima?

285 posted on 01/06/2006 6:09:11 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: stainlessbanner
from Burleson ISD spokesman Richard Crummel: "It's a violation of the dress code," he said. "We don't want students to wear anything that might cause a disruption"

If they don't want students to wear anything that even might cause a disruption then they better stick to school uniforms, because in our current oversensitized, politically correct society someone is always bound to be offended by something. And if it's not clothes it'll be something else (stickers, posters, pins, etc.). Where does it end?

Of course if someone came to school decked out in a Fidel Castro, Louis Farrakhan, or Ramsey Clark t-shirt I suspect spokesman Crummel would be just fine with that, even though the all in the above group not only despise America but work overtime to hurt us as much as possible.

286 posted on 01/06/2006 6:09:29 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: AzaleaCity5691
The slaves probably would not have remained slaves, because in the Southern cities, agitation was growing due to immigrant laborers who resented the fact that they had to compete with slave labor for work. Political pressure from the cities (particularly the seaports) would have forced slavery to end by the 1870s, had the South won.

That's ridiculous. Look at the census data for 1870. In most southern states the percentage of foreign born people were 1 or 2 percent of the population. There was no immigrant population competing with slave labor for work because there was virtually no immigrant population to begin with. And what population there was wasn't competing for work commonly held by blacks.

287 posted on 01/06/2006 6:19:23 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Racehorse
Well, some folks still believe their ancestors were promised forty acres and a mule.

Had it been up to me, the freed slaves would have received land confiscated from the large plantations that they and their ancestors had worked for generations. Despite the uncomfortable specter of far left socialism's disrespect for property rights, it would have been an act of justice to compensate the freed men for generations of forced labor. Also it would have made the freed slaves less vulnerable to future exploitation at the hands of the antebellum elite and hastens the freedmen's progress into being secure taxpaying citizens.

Some of their descendants still want the land and the mule, plus interest.

The current reparations push lack both the justice of immediate land distribution and the utility of putting the newly freed slaves on a secure footing in a dangerous land and time.

288 posted on 01/06/2006 6:24:14 PM PST by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Getsmart64
Show me a historical factual quote of a Southern diplomat stating that the only reason their state was voting for succession was because of slavery....please...

How about these?

"What was the reason that induced Georgia to take the step of secession? This reason may be summed up in one single proposition. It was a conviction, a deep conviction on the part of Georgia, that a separation from the North-was the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery." -- Speech of Henry Benning to the Virginia Secession Convention, 1861

"This new union with Lincoln Black Republicans and free negroes, without slavery, or, slavery under our old constitutional bond of union, without Lincoln Black Republicans, or free negroes either, to molest us.

If we take the former, then submission to negro equality is our fate. if the latter, then secession is inevitable." -- Address of William L. Harris of Mississippi

"History affords no example of a people who changed their government for more just or substantial reasons. Louisiana looks to the formation of a Southern confederacy to preserve the blessings of African slavery, and of the free institutions of the founders of the Federal Union, bequeathed to their posterity." -- Address of George Williamson, Commissioner from Louisiana to the Texas Secession Convention

"But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other -- though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition." -- Alexander Stephens, March 1861

289 posted on 01/06/2006 6:26:10 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: LexBaird
I was under the impression that Jackson was an instructor at VMI or the Citadel or somesuch. He wasn't rich, or a member of the Plantation Class, IIRC.

But he did own slaves, as many as 9 at a single time.

290 posted on 01/06/2006 6:28:09 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: rebelyell
Yes, R.E. Lee was a hero. Do you suggest otherwise?

Depends on ones point of view, doesn't it?

291 posted on 01/06/2006 6:33:29 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: wardaddy

I agree with your argument. If this school allows Malcolm X and Rap t-shirts, then they must allow these girls to bring these purses.

I too find Rap and X highly offense and don't any of this crap around my kids. For me, I'd prefer the schools wipe it all out and force all student clothing and attire to bland and functional, if not a uniform.

If you felt that I implied you or others are descendants of traitors if your lineage pass through Confederates, I appologize. That was not my intent, nor do I believe this personally.

I often chose to argue sides I do not necessary agree with, but a side that has few defenders, just for the enjoyment of debating as filler during parts of my day.


292 posted on 01/06/2006 6:44:16 PM PST by Diplomat
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To: stand watie
our "barefooted, hungry lads in tattered gray rags" had NOTHING in excess except VALOR & DEDICATION.

Well, that was only their condition before the war. After it started, they all got a gray uniform and a rifle.

293 posted on 01/06/2006 7:07:08 PM PST by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: stainlessbanner
from Burleson ISD spokesman Richard Crummel: "It's a violation of the dress code," he said. "We don't want students to wear anything that might cause a disruption, and that symbol has done that in the past."

Once again, the courts give an incentive to people to be hyper-sensitive so that they can promote their viewpoint and exclude others' views.

294 posted on 01/06/2006 7:11:50 PM PST by Teacher317
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To: rock_lobsta

Drop the smiley face and I'd agree with you.


295 posted on 01/06/2006 7:15:21 PM PST by festus (The constitution may be flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now.)
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To: El Gato
The legal test is whether the "speech" is substantially likely to cause a significant disruption to the school's primary purpose...

(which is education, in case they've forgotten...)

Most of those flags are not likely to cause a disruption. However, since liberals have pioneered the method of screaming at the slightest violation of their tender sensibilites, they create their own Free Speech rules, whereby they can restrict your "speech" in school simply by reacting disruptively towards it.

296 posted on 01/06/2006 7:21:27 PM PST by Teacher317
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To: Diplomat
There are honorable people who have ancestors on both sides of the WBTS. It was a grievous time in the history of our nation. The idea of brother taking arms against brother is at once the most noble of causes and the most tragic. When men feel so strongly about an idea, a country, a consitution that they are willing to sacrafice their fortunes and families and their lives we should pay attention.

The men on both sides of this conflict were the same. The most noble and genuine people who ever inhabited the earth. The Judeo_Christian culture that proved its bona-fides for the next hundred and fifty years.

Slavery was the abomination of the time. But neither North nor South saw it as a humane issue, they saw it as an economic issue. They considered themselves humane operators of the insitution, right or wrong that they were.

Your sniveling about hypothesizing is disingenuous. You have inferred often about the T-shirt propoganda and your inference is that MY ancestors were traitors. Well, my friend. You could also be called a traitor. If you'll read (you can read can't you, well of course you can you obviously can type but that doesn't mean you can think) the Declaration of Independence it states that a government that becomes oppressive should be overthrown.

What did the South do? They didn't even overthrow. They opted out. And you and your ignorant brethren have taken one issue, slavery, and made it the reason for a four year war of vast and universal consequences. No conflict so long and vast and tragic as that could be about one issue of political decision. It is like saying that WWII was about Japanese planes.

297 posted on 01/06/2006 7:27:13 PM PST by groanup (Shred for Ian)
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To: JamesP81
"I will not surrender a symbol of southern heritage to a bunch of retards who run around in white sheets burning crosses thinking that that somehow honors God."

Unlike Pat Robertson I'll never attempt to speak for God, but I do believe folks who share your sentiment are truly blessed. Peace to you and yours my fellow American.

298 posted on 01/06/2006 7:29:19 PM PST by blaquebyrd
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To: El Gato
This just wasn't true, although it was somewhat more true of the South than the North. Yes units were raised in the various states, and often officered by men from the those states. But in the Union army at least, they were completely integrated. Supply, chain of command, everything. Except at first perhaps, since at that point the units were indeed state militia units, and the Union Army was just not prepared to properly integrate them.

I looked into this more and you are definately correct that the federal army was very integrated at the start. Thank you.

However, the federal army when the war starts is only 16,000 strong. Distributed mostly throughout the western territories, along the Canadian border and near the Potomic. In a few years this grows into nearly 4 million men and boys having served on both sides combined. That's a 250 times increase in size!

What I was trying to get at was that most military units that fought were regionally (State) provided. And those who fought side-by-side were mostly all from the same state or sub region in a state or near a major river artery. This is nothing like todays military, where any random selection of 10 soldiers from a given unit is highly likely to consist of men from 9 or more States. A military this integrated just couldn't break down into a North and South and go at it today. Nor could we grow it 250 times in size to fight ourselves.

Chain of command would have to be integrated because you couldn't politically have a single state dominate all positions. Plus, we all know Lee was offered the Union Army, but went Confederate because he stayed with his home state. As did most West Pointers. Thus, the leadership of both armies were integrated before the war and then spilt and formed 2 chains of command. If Lee did accept Lincoln's offer, I suspect the war would have been a lot shorter than the 5 or 6 years it went; and a lot less bloody. McCellan was a runner, not a fighter. Integrated leadership goes without saying.

I know slightly more about civil war logistics than David Letterman. Are you certain this function was very integrated, or did each individual army and militia have to provide for their own? I suspect alot of it was the later, especially on the South side. I suspect the logistics people were merged as the armies grew in size and were grouped together. Although I don't know for certain.

I had friends who do Civil War reenactments and I recall them telling me that the individuals soldiers of the era had to provide all their own clothing, boots and initial supplies. Don't recall on who provided the guns, probably a mix. They started Confederate, so the clothing issue may be specific to the South. All I know is that wearing wool, which they did, is quite itchy.

299 posted on 01/06/2006 7:38:21 PM PST by Diplomat
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To: Diplomat
I know slightly more about civil war logistics than David Letterman.

Then why do you post about civil war logistics? David doesn't.

300 posted on 01/06/2006 7:43:36 PM PST by groanup (Shred for Ian)
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