Posted on 05/31/2006 1:32:23 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
If I may, I'd like to ask for an informal 'poll' of FReepers:
There are 2 'Conservative' movements in this country.
All I would like to know is, what % of us are which? Please respond and say which, or both.
Kinda reminds one of the quote by LaRoachefucoult(sp?): "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to Virtue."
This is exactly where the wheels are going to come off your whole effort! Most Conservatives of the Ronald Reagan/Maggie Thatcher variety don't believe in concensus at all! In fact, Maggie said that "Consensus is the abscence of all leadership!"
Consensus and "coming together," are strictly Liberal ideas/concepts and will probably never be fully accepted by Conservatives of any flavor, unless they'r CINO's.(Conservatives In Name Only)(Of which we have a rapidly growing number of on FR!!!)(much to my dismay)
Sad but true. "Conservative" does not equal "tax cuts", because without corresponding spending cuts all we're doing is handing the bill to future generations. It's like paying less on your credit card balance and thinking you have more money. Instead, Republicans have done the opposite with stuff like the ridiculous Medicare drug giveaway. The Democrats are worse, and the big-L Libertarians are kooky, but it would be nice to actually have a positive reason to vote R.
If you have to split conservatism to suit your taste, then you aren't one.
Oh, no, please! This is exactly wrong, in my experience. That will just divide us.
It is not accurate for one group to call themselves "true" Conservatives, and say everyone else needs a hypen. Who are the 'true' conservatives? Look at this thread. Religious Cs don't think political Cs belong. Political Cs thing Religious Cs are 'statist' on many issues. But both are Cs. Neither side gets to define what it means, as long as others also claim the title.
These are 'attributes'. Your feelings about social questions. Your feelings about govt-related, political issues.
All can be conservatives. And we'll all have to work together, on the things we agree on.
With this seperating idea, you'll have internal war. "You're not a *real* conservative, you're a NeoCon".
And 'Libertarian' does *not* describe Political Cs.
That is one of the biggest errors Social Cs make, and it is a huge divider of the party. Libertarian includes ideas like, "Non-initiation of force" that Cs do NOT agree with. So being a libertarian is not on the table.
We're Cs. Just somewhat different on some issues.
Agreed. But that is the whole point here. We do not have a leader. The political C movement is leader-less, at this point in time.
Bush isn't the leader of the Political Cs. He is, I think, the leader of the Social Cs. But the Contract with America showed that only the Political Cs have the platform that can win a majority.
If we had a leader who embodied my beliefs, like a Reagan, I'd not be posting this thread, I'm sure. But we don't.
Since I'm not capable or willing to be that leader, I'm trying the next best thing. Trying to identify who and what the party faithful is, and wants. And get some kind of a consensus on what we can all get behind.
No one else is doing anything to appeal to smaller govt folks that I can see. The revolution of '94 is dying. I'm hoping to find out that the movment behind it is still here.
I'm doing an analysis of the components of what makes up 'conservative' thought.
I'm working with the hypothesis that you can split peoples ideas up into 'social' ideas (things a person believes about society) and their 'political' ideas (things a person believes about govt).
Sometimes, it appears, they overlap.
But not always. One person may believe homosexuality is a sin, and it should be illegal. Another may believe that it's a sin, but govt has no place outlawing it.
I'm looking for a way to analyze this, that's all.
P.S. -- we have *got* to stop telling other conservatives they aren't a C. That's not going to help.
You forgot Flatten Iran...8-D
That's a circular line of reasoning. You are assuming that people to whom I tell such things really are conservatives. I'm saying they aren't. So no damage done.
To take your line of reasoning further, I could tell you to stop telling Leninist and Marxist conservatives that they aren't conservatives. While we are at it, why are we chasing away tax-and-spend conservatives? What about pedophile conservatives?
If you first insist on a consensus, there is no need to lead and no requirement to take responsibility for any bad results. Hence, consensus is nearly always the policy choice of the governing class.
I'm doing an analysis of the components of what makes up 'conservative' thought.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's some food for thought:
THE GREAT DIVIDE [puritan v agrarian republicans]
Address:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1638794/posts
I'm looking for the conservative option for choosing to restore our industry, build up our might and stay out of other peoples' wars.
Major damage done. Because you are pushing away people who disagree with you on fringe topics, causing many to be turned off to the party. You are telling them, "you don't belong".
We're not talking about core issues here, that's the point.
Consider, we have 3 type of ppl in the C movement:
So, if all 3 are interested in voting for Rs who are promising to be fiscally conservative . . . are you saying that any of the 3 don't deserve the right to call themselves 'Conservative'?
Basically, it's wrong for you do declare yourself the "one true type of conservatie" and then push others out of the movement. That's called hijacking the movement.
Much food for thought, thank you very much.
Agreed -- altho personally, I call this 'conservative' in the sense of 'careful'.
It's a dangerous world. We can't be too careful with our defense. The only way to stay safe is to be the biggest, baddest guy on the block.
François de La Rochefoucauld: "Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue."
Good List but I would also add:
Uphold the oath of your office.
Uphold the rule of law.
Uphold the Constitution.
Reverse Kelo vs New London
Get rid of the anchor baby provision for illegals it was never meant to be a way for illegals to become citizens anyway.
Secure our borders
Just to name a few ;)
Here, I disagree.
Conservative is perfect.
Libs have run from the word L, instead of making it their own. I would prefer to staunchly define 'C' instead of running from it.
I've got nothing against the word "Conservative," any more then I do against the word "Liberal." You can be for example be a "Conservative liberal," they are not mutually exclusive. But, in the same sense that leftists are not real champions of liberty, and are thus not liberal; the rightists are not really conservative. "Conservative," and "Movement," are somewhat mutually exclusive. The whole point of being conservative is not to move, so talking about a "Conservative movement" is rather like talking about an “erratic stability” with say, an “obscure precision.”
So I'm analyzing what "C" means to various people.
To me it means something other than what it is currently being used for, and thus is no more applicable to the modern political party which claims it than is "Liberal" to the left, who are not in fact liberal.
That is *one* definition, to be opposed to change.
But there are others. And since the first one doesn't apply -- since it is change we are seeking -- it is useless in describing the modern conservative movement.
"Conservative" also means "careful". As in a conservative estimate. To be conservative with words. To spend money conservatively. And since we're trying to describe a movement, that definition seems perfect here.
Ls are "liberal" with money, solutions, words.
That's why Ls can call Bush 'Hitler' and 'Chimp' and 'Stupid'. Where a conservative would be more careful, more circumspect in their use of words.
Well, just my opinion, anyway. But to be honest, I think this is an angle that would allow 'Conservatism' to sweep the country. The press would eat it up. Young kids would want to be Cs.
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