Posted on 04/05/2007 5:42:47 PM PDT by Utah Girl
No, you don’t know what you are talking about.
There is a Catholic Mission in Panguitch, Utah.
See here:
http://www.utahcatholicdiocese.org/directory/location_details.php?idx=38
There are not many Catholics in Utah at all. See here to see the charitable and educational and outreach efforts in Utah and across the nation.
http://www.utahcatholicdiocese.org/church/stats.php
I don’t particularly feel like getting into a fight with you, but I do have to ask you this question:
You have shucked off the Mormons because you don’t believe in their religion. That’s good.
And you’ve come to Christ through the Bible, and you think the Bible is sufficient. That’s good.
And you hammer on the Catholics because you think (erroneously, as it turns out) that the Catholics do not try to do anything with Panguitch, Utah, and that they should be devoting time and limited resources to a place you happen to know. Hmmmmm.
My question is: and how many of the poor have you yourself and your Bible fed, in Panguitch, Utah? And how many of the sick have you and your Bible cared for, in Panguitch, Utah. And how many people have you and your Bible converted to Christianity, in Panguitch, Utah?
Your criticism of the Church is that it lacks the resources to be everywhere, that Panguitch has needs, and that the Church leaves them unfulfilled. It’s true: the Church has limited means. And Jesus didn’t try to get to Damascus to convert the Damascenes either. Even he was limited in the reach of his arm, while living. The Church is made of living people and has limited resources. You consider it a serious and valid criticism that the Church has not been more present in Panguitch, Utah, doing more good there (evidently it IS there after all: see the above link).
So, you have identified a crying need for pastoral care and ministry in Panguitch, Utah, and it is a measure of the failure of the Catholic Church that it is not there with a very great presence (yet).
So, how are you and your Bible doing at filling that need there in Panguitch, Utah. You know they need redemption. You’ve got your Bible tucked under your arm, so you have all you need. What are you doing for the people of Panguitch? What is your missionary work there? What is the money you have invested in it? How much time and effort and money do you and your Bible spend on those poor people, neglected by the Sacraments of the Catholic Church (well, unless they go to the Catholic mission there, in Panguitch Utah, and take the Sacraments at Mass on Sunday mornings, but let’s ignore that).
It’s true, I am indeed ignorant of Panguitch, Utah. Never been there. But I know that there is a Catholic mission there. And now you do too. So I retract my earlier remarks about the Church not having the resources to serve Panguitch. The Church does serve Panguitch. You can get the sacraments there, if you want them. Conversely, can the poor folks of Panguitch, laboring in their Mormon ignorance and with the Catholic Church so inattentive to their needs, get their spiritual needs fulfilled by anything that you and your Bible are doing for them right now? Do you have a mission in Panguitch?
And you hammer on the Catholics because you think (erroneously, as it turns out) that the Catholics do not try to do anything with Panguitch, Utah, and that they should be devoting time and limited resources to a place you happen to know. Hmmmmm.
I in fact, told you that I didn't know about the status of Panguitch at the present time. I am happy there is a mission there NOW. There wasn't (as I said) when I was a child with no resources.
The only reason I brought up the lack of presence in Panguitch, is because YOU stated that the sacraments of the Catholic Church were necessary, and that I could not have a proper understanding of Christ without the "Church." My reply was to tell you how Catholicism was not in any way, shape or form available to me as a minor. You appeared somewhat nonchalant about it. It alarmed me that you didn't seem to care.
My question is: and how many of the poor have you yourself and your Bible fed, in Panguitch, Utah? And how many of the sick have you and your Bible cared for, in Panguitch, Utah. And how many people have you and your Bible converted to Christianity, in Panguitch, Utah?
I understand what you are saying, we only do what our limited resources can do. As for poor and unfed, that wasn't the charge. It was the lack of concern (yours and the "Church's") for the souls there.
So, how are you and your Bible doing at filling that need there in Panguitch, Utah. You know they need redemption. You’ve got your Bible tucked under your arm, so you have all you need. What are you doing for the people of Panguitch? What is your missionary work there? What is the money you have invested in it? How much time and effort and money do you and your Bible spend on those poor people, neglected by the Sacraments of the Catholic Church (well, unless they go to the Catholic mission there, in Panguitch Utah, and take the Sacraments at Mass on Sunday mornings, but let’s ignore that).
There is an outreach of which I play a minor roll (The Mormons hate me as an apostate....if you couldn't tell). The protestants have made inroads in the region of rural Utah, they have converted some (not enough). The Catholics remain fairly static, and missing in action.
Let’s not leave it at that last exchange.
I don’t want to fight with you. If what I said was too aggressive, I apologize.
You didn’t offend me.
I value your opinion. As I said it is difficult at best to convey meaning in this type of format.
Again I thank you for your effort, and please forgive me if I come across as harsh. That is my personality I suppose. I assure you, as I sit here typing, I harbor no ill will toward you.
My point was to poke some fun at your intimation that Mormons get their testimonies through hallucination.
-------------------------------------------
How would you tell the difference?
BTW I've been dealing, big time, with my GRT. Uncles' hallucinations, the last few days. How experienced are you on the phenomena?
In other words, how do you know what you experience is not self induced?
That some folks have "seen God" on various drugs, is so common as to be cliche'. Also, drugs and fasting, to produce mystical experience, are common practice in all kinds of primitive shamanic cultures.
You can make light, all you want, of my statement, that fasting lowers mental resistance, stresses the body, and can induce hallucinations, but the fact remains, that my statement is true.
So, how do you know what you experience is not self induced? That is a serious question.
Now, I must be honest, LR, I’ve been hesitant to answer this question, because I’ve seen what comes of your serious questions. Nevertheless, giving the benefit of the doubt, I’ll bite one more time.
Official guidelines are that we fast once a month for twenty-four hours. That’s two meals skipped. It’s just about enough to make you hungry and thirsty - certainly not enough to alter consciousness. Give it a try. Tell me about anything weird you see.
Fasting has a couple of purposes. First, accompanied with prayer, it’s an outward expression of devotion. This can increase faith, making fasting an appropriate tool when we have specific requests of God.
Second, we are encouraged to donate the money we save on those two meals to help the needy. It’s a good way to serve others. As an ex-Mormon, you are familiar with the avenue of donation referred to as “fast offering.” Those donations are placed into a discretionary fund for the ward and used to help where it’s needed, as determined by the specific bishop.
Third, fasting is an excellent way to learn self-control. Fundamentally, my desire for a drink of water is not far different from my desire to harbor immoral thoughts - they are both urges of the “natural man,” and by learning to control the harmless one, I grow greater strength to control the harmful one. By practicing self-restraint in abstaining from food and drink for a short period, it helps me learn how to properly control other parts of my life.
For the record, I have never fasted as a means to finding the truth out about anything, though others have used it as a tool for such ends. My own certainty in the truth of the LDS Church as Christ’s own Church comes from years of experiences where the Spirit testifies of the truth to my heart and mind. It’s unrelated to fasting.
You ask how I can be certain that such things are not self-induced. That, I cannot explain. I can use terms such as “burning of the bosom,” “clarity of thought,” etc., but until you’ve experienced it, you cannot understand. Suffice it to say, there is no room left for doubt that its source is external. It comes from the Holy Spirit, who testifies to the soul itself. It’s knowledge of the heart, rather than the mind - and, unfortunately, the heart doesn’t know how to speak.
To be very clear: to my knowledge, I’ve never hallucinated. I’ve never seen God, never seen Christ, never been visited by angels, never had a vision. Frankly, an angelic visitation would hold less sway over me than the knowledge held in my heart - memory fades into the past, but the testimony of the Holy Ghost resides with the soul forever - even if some of us choose to clutter up the space with a more worldly focus.
It’s also where the suicide bomber “prophet” was from in the movie “Contact”
Those Hollywood types sure know how to play up to us weird and psycho Mormons! /sarc
Fasting makes us totally dependent on the Lord, in a sacrificing, humble way. Nothing wrong with that at all!
Well said Tanti!
They allowed “come-as-you-are” because of the fishermen and the recreationists. The meetings lasted just one hour. People stood outside just to listen. The testimony meetings were phenomenal!
The of course the LDS cookie-cutter, beehive organization took over, and in 2000, built the same recipe church building with the same ‘blocks’ of boring meetings. It is still come as you are, but nobody does....and no one fights to get in.
The hierarchy has a screw loose if you ask me. That branch was successful, it was a successful proselyting branch. They blew it big-time. I lived there on our ranch during the summers. I still own property on the lake front. Now, if you have a real interest in knowing who I am, you can find out - - I'm the only girl/woman that fits the bill.
TheThen of course.....
I don't think I was awake yet, when I posted to you.... ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Your post on fasting was interesting. Thanks for sharing that ... I’ve used fasting in the past and find all that you wrote to be ‘right on’. And I’m not even a Mormon! But fasting is an excellent devotional tool when health allows for it to be used. I had a teens’ Sunday School class for whom I fasted numerous times (they were encouraged to ask anything they wanted to discuss in class) ... we learned a lot during that semester. One thing you might expound upon though is the usefulness of keeping your fasting hidden from others as a private focus upon God’s loving presence.
“...when health allows for it to be used.”
Yep, some people can’t fast safely. My mother is one such, for example.
“One thing you might expound upon though is the usefulness of keeping your fasting hidden from others as a private focus upon God’s loving presence.”
Indeed, Jesus explained this principle quite well:
Matthew 6:
16 ¶ Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Go back and read what I have been responding to.
I know quite well what Mormons do and don’t do.
I also know a bit about the subconscious mind, how it works, and how the subconscious mind can be manipulated by the leaders of cults such as the Mormon Church.
You say,”Now, I must be honest, LR, I’ve been hesitant to answer this question, because I’ve seen what comes of your serious questions. Nevertheless, giving the benefit of the doubt, I’ll bite one more time.”
Really now, what has become of my questions? Are you saying you find it uncomfortable to answer them? You’re lucky you’re not a trout, I’d have had you in the creel some time back.
You seem to be trying to say that fasting for 24 hours is not enough to alter consciousness. If you go and read any study on the subject, you will find that is not true.
It makes no difference at all what you do to rationalize your practice,(IE fast offerings, etc.) Except that investing money helps to reinforce the brain-washing experience.
To quote you one more time,”I cannot explain. I can use terms such as “burning of the bosom,” “clarity of thought,” etc., but until you’ve experienced it, you cannot understand.”
So, even you admit you can’t explain why you believe.(if you even do)
I suggest that what you think of as “clarity of thought” is, in fact nothing more than brain washing.
Oh yes! They used to tell me I needed to “cleanse my mind” but I was lucky, and saw it for the brain-washing that it was.
Good luck to you, that you may find your way out of the maze.
This is precisely what I meant, LR. You purported to ask a serious question, then you dismissed the answer out-of-hand with your usual canards. It’s a further affirmation that your agenda is corrupt and your intentions are anything but genuine.
If it’s a maze I’m in, then it’s pretty nice in here. What amazes me is that you find you must denigrate my beliefs despite the fact that they bring me joy. That’s an indication of mean-spiritedness and spite. You’d best search your heart, LR, for such an approach to life can do you little good.
It's too bad for you that you don't have a better explaination for your belief, and evidently you don’t like being treated the way all of you, Mormons, on this forum have treated me.(Actually I've treated you-all better than you've treated me.)
I’ve said nothing vulgar, I’ve simply challenged your belief. Your religion says it welcomes that. If your religion really does, then why do you take offense at all.
Now you’ve accused me of being “corrupt, mean spirited, and spiteful.”
You should be ashamed! Go and repent, and “count your blessings” that I pointed it out and gave you the chance to redeem yourself.
Then, may you see things with more (true) clarity.
“I’ve said nothing vulgar, I’ve simply challenged your belief.”
No, you didn’t say anything vulgar, and I appreciate that. I never accused you of such.
Your goal, as evidenced by your bait-and-switch tactics, is not to challenge beliefs. That would require a dialogue. That would require that you actually listen to the answers. This most recent exchange between you and me has demonstrated exactly how you do not.
There is only one explanation remaining, as far as I can see: you are living for the argument. Because I’m only trying to share with those who ask, I see no reason to engage you. You’re not listening; I’m better advised to speak with someone who does.
“Now you’ve accused me of being “corrupt, mean spirited, and spiteful.””
I did not. Read the post again. You have - once again - personalized general statements. It’s no wonder, then, that you have found our every response to be a personal assault. I accused you of having corrupt and misplaced goals; I accused your actions of being mean-spirited and spiteful. I questioned your means; I did not attack you.
That you have chosen to abrogate those personality traits to yourself is your decision, and not mine.
“Go and repent...”
I do, quite frequently. But I stand by every word I have uttered in this exchange. Truth-telling is not a transgression.
Until you demonstrate an open mind and an intellectual curiosity, rather than a desire to simply win the argument, I will not engage you again.
Best regards.
That’s a pretty fine hair you’re splitting, and a phony one to boot. You know my opinions on the Mormon Church are well founded and sincere.
Your words,”That’s an indication of mean-spiritedness and spite.” plus you accused me of “pursuing a corrupt agenda.”
Those are personal accusations, plain and simple. Typical of Mormons when they can’t make a more intelligent defense of their belief.
The evidence is there for all to see. (Which, BTW, is more than I can say for the "Book of Mormon").
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