Posted on 09/03/2007 3:19:20 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
Today was an eventful day. I drove to Cleveland, reunited with my father’s side of the family and got arrested. More on that arrested part to come.
For the labor day weekend my father decided to host a small family reunion. My sister flew in from California and I drove in from Pittsburgh to visit my father, his wife and my little brother and sister. Shortly after arriving we packed the whole family into my father’s Buick and headed off to the grocery store to buy some ingredients to make monkeybread. (It’s my little sister’s birthday today and that was her cute/bizare birthday request.)
Next to the grocery store was a Circuit City. (The Brooklyn, Ohio Circuit City to be exact.) Having forgotten that it was my sister’s birthday I decided to run in and buy her a last minute gift. I settled on Disney’s “Cars” game for the Nintendo Wii. I also needed to purchase a Power Squid surge protector which I paid for separately with my business credit card. As I headed towards the exit doors I passed a gentleman whose name I would later learn is Santura. As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, “Sir, I need to examine your receipt.” I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, “No thank you.”
As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle.
(Excerpt) Read more at newsite.michaelrighi.com ...
Showing your packages and receipts is very different from strip searches decided on by bored or horny employees. Right now people arguing that they shouldn’t have to show their packages as it constitutes illegal searches are not only being cry babies but risk degrading the rights of all of us against illegal searches.
“On the other hand our rights are protected by the Constitution and our rights are protected from infringement by the Federal Government not corporations. “
True, and right now we are protected against illegal searches by the constitution, even on private property, however congress is usually quite willing to abrogate those rights. Gun laws are a good example.
Technically they could pass a law allowing retailers to do strip searches on anyone they find 'suspicious', in other words ‘anyone’, by stipulating that you agree to waive your constitutional right against such searches by shopping on their premises. See how it would work? If you want to retain your rights and don’t want to risk being searched, you are barred from shopping in physical stores. Obviously you couldn’t be strip searched if you do all your shopping on-line.
“On another hand I don’t think a law is necessary. Circuit City could make the case that they have an implied contract with their customers giving them the right to search all bags or packages. Posting a sign at the entrance to the store stating that management reserves the right to search all packages would give weight to such an argument.”
You would think, however courts in this country aren’t reasonable or rational. In practice it doesn’t work like that.
Not legally
- challenging that can have adverse consequences for you
- how they handle the challenge may have adverse consequences for them
I go along with with LPOs most of the time. When they get stupid, I don’t and the fun begins.
The bottom line is the store can ask to verify your receipt and purchases, but the consumer is under no obligation to allow the search. The only way the store can detain and/or search someone leaving the store is if they have a reasonable suspicion that the consumer has shoplifted.
The reasonable suspicion must be “articulable.” It cannot be a mere hunch, or that the consumer looks like a bad character. It must be something concrete such as seeing the consumer place an item in his pocket and not paying for it.
These receipt checks that many stores perform near the exit are completely voluntary on the part of the consumer. If you wish to allow a search of your property upon exiting the store, you may. If you do not wish to allow the search, you may leave without doing so. The store has no legal authority to force the search unless it has a reasonable suspicion. For more information, look up “shopkeeper’s privilege” on the internet.
Playing the Devil’s advocate: When you pay for something at the cash register, doesn’t it and the bag they put it in then become YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY as soon as the cash is exchanged? Or does it when you walk out the door, or into their parking lot, or when you leave their parking lot?
I was in a Circuit City who had hired off duty city police in uniform to check bags. I walked out the door into the parking lot and here comes this cop wanting to look at my receipt and into my bag. I let him look, at the time I didn’t know if he was working for them or just patrolling looking for shoplifters. PISSED ME OFF royally. I complained to the city. Shortly after, I read in the paper that they couldn’t no longer wear their uniforms for off duty jobs. They must have gotten a lot of complaints.
If you visit me will you submit to a search before you leave my property?
MB, you gave some prudent information earlier in regards to contract law, business law, and common law issues recently.
Here is an issue I really don’t understand, and was wondering if you would guide me in the right direction.
The issue is Cramming/ Slamming as practiced by Cell Phone companies.
For example, I’m being charged for services I don’t nor have ever wanted nor have subscribed to any messaging on my cell phone, and am now routinely billed for it, and have to spend 30minutes to 3 hours monthly disputing the charges monthly ($2-$10/mo in charges for services I do not accept nor desire.)
This is about the 5th time over the past year I have to dispute the charges and each time the provider takes them off, but half the time it seems they creep back in. Now I’m being told I have to tell other people who call me NOT to message me so I won;t be charged, although my phone and service do not offer me that service (go figure).
Apparently, I’m not the only one in this predicament and frankly, it’s annoying. In order to dispute, I’m usually speaking with somebody on the other side of the globe who has been outsourced, which makes me feel even less secure. (Of course, who is more secure, the person conducting business in the US with other Americans not cognizant their info is spread out all over the planet, or working with the outsourced party recognizing all our private info is in the hands of third world vendors?)
This leads me to consider this entire thread. It seems that as we push towards more outsourcing, issues of common law to us as Americans, might not appear so common to third world cultures. Now when we are beleaguered by repetitive charges from out of the blue, we might refuse to pay, but also become susceptible to recourse by others we don’t consider legitimate, but are nonetheless forced to endure.
I guess my question regards all the outsourcing and contracting issues which in the past were considered handled by the UCC, and contained by US law, seem to becoming much more influenced by foreign interests, independent of US Law.
Have you seen or heard of any groups attempting to normalize these contracting basics between different cultures? It would be nice to at least have the education of say a 1st year college B-Law student to understand what risks might exist out there between different cultures blending into the US business climate under the guise of ‘outsourcing’.
According to the UCC a generic sale ends when the payment and the goods are exchanged. That would make it your private property.
I was in a Circuit City who had hired off duty city police in uniform to check bags.
That's an interesting one. But he still can't use his police powers unless he has a reasonable suspicion of you specifically shoplifting. However, I can see it convenient for the store when a shoplifter is caught, as he can do a real arrest right there, even chase the perp down the street if necessary. It eliminates all of the vagueness of shopkeeper's privilege -- how long can you hold him, what force can you use to hold him, etc..
I've seen a lot of grocery stores hiring off-duty officers in uniform for security, but I've never seen them doing bag checking.
At that point, the stuff is mine and thus none of their business. Don’t pull a “guilty until proven innocent” 10 seconds after innocence has been clearly established (i.e.: at checkout upon receiving the receipt).
This guy has a point.
He never set off any loss-prevention devices, and his merchandise was in the bag. Even Wally World won’t check your receipt in this case.
I can understand if the alarm goes off when exiting the store, or if it was an item that did not fit in a bag - then I can agree with the store’s right to protect themselves from theft.
However, treating all customers like criminals is no way to do business. Actually, I’m sure that CC’s employees steal far more then their customers.
If anyone should be arrested, it’s the manager for preventing this man from leaving the store without any evidence of shoplifting.
He didn’t set off the antitheft device.
He simply walked out with his personal stuff, ignoring the company rep who wanted to see the receipt just seconds after a company rep gave him that receipt. Its not like they had any reason to believe he stole anything.
You try it a few times, and then compare your results to his story.
Thanks for the info.
A few thoughts:
1. Get advice from qualified lawyer licensed in your state.
2. Send certified letter to service provider explaining your problems and lack of desire to be charged for these items. I would expect this is not a simple mistake and rather an improper attempt to charge for undesired-unordered services. I would mention in my letter that if it continues I will be contacting my attorney and asking his to file suit for myself and all others so situated. I might also say that if this requires any more of my time, I will bring suit in small claims court for my time spent solving their problem..... and I don’t work cheap.
Small claims scares big companies because of the cost of defending an action there can be thousands. Be prepared for them to argue lack of venue for your action. I’m guessing you signed up for your service in your county, used the service in your county, were billed in your county, they have facilities in your county (owned stores, not just authorized sales agents, plus towers, etc.) they have contracts with the local 911 service in your county, they have employees in your county.
My favorite line on venue (actually used it in Texas)
“Your Honor, this airline operates flights in and out of Potter County. They have offices here in Potter County. They advertise in Potter County newspapers. They employee people in Potter County. They have billboards in Potter County.
The days of a person here in Texas being able to scam some poor victim and get away with it because they had a fast horse and got to the county line before the sheriff were over a long time ago because of fair and equitable courts such as yours.
Delta Air Lines loves to take off and land in Potter County. They love to take money from people in Potter County. They should have to answer in your court, here in Potter County, too."
They settled quickly. :~)
3. I would also call my the consumer affairs reporter at my local TV station and detail the problem to him/her.
4. Again, I am not qualified to advise you on law in this instance.... just how to be the squeaky wheel SOB who gets action!
Thanks,...concur on prof services in respective state,..but that does help a bit.
BTW, I like the Texan perspective having been born and raised in the Lone Star State.
I’ve done it multiple times and no one has ever chased me down. If they wish to ban me from shopping at their store because I don’t care to follow their “policy” that is their right.
What is the constitutional basis that allows private enterprise to search me? Soaring costs are not a reason.
The Constitution doesn’t govern the conduct of private entities.
Well they can & do chase people down. When they take your license number down and the cops are at your door, lets see how smart you think you are in the slammer wondering where you are gonna come up with the money to “defend’ yourself.
Folks, I’ve read many times in my local paper of “consumers” rolling a cart out the side exit of Walmart with a computer in the cart that they “forgot” to pay for. The retailer has every right to check your receipt against what is in the cart or the bag.
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