German Fascism Is Conquering Kosovo!

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4576.2859.0.0 ^

[kronos77]

What the US is to Western Europe, Germany is to Eastern Europe. Easy to blame if something goes wrong, because everyone knows they won’t bother to answer the accusations, and a good way to ignite nationalistic feelings and win elections.

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So.... US killed 25% of European population?

[Cerb]

I don’t see how you could have possibly read this into my posting, but just to clarify: that was not what I meant. I wanted to say that Germany serves as a scapegoat for Eastern European nations, just as America does for Western European nations.

And had I visited theTrumpet.com beforehand I wouldn’t even have bothered to post in this thread at all :-)

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“This is good. There were NO Serbian troops in existence. Hadn’t existed since 1918. There were federal troops - at the time commanded by (mostly) Croat generals. Yugoslavia’s Government itself was headed by a Croat prime minister (A. Markovich).”

Incorrect. The Yugoslavian Army was little more than the army of communist Serbia. I noticed you ignored the website I linked to. If you had, you would have seen this: “That May, Serbia upped the ante by blocking the installation of Stipe Mesic, a Croat scheduled to be the chairman of the rotating presidency in Yugoslavia.” So much for your vaunted federation.

“I just gave you the facts and then some.”

No, you just gave me your imaginings. As the NYTimes easily admitted: “Members of the federal military met with Croatian officials today in Zagreb, the Croatian capital, to discuss proposals for the withdrawal of the Serbian-dominated army from the republic and for relief shipments to besieged Croatian cities including Vukovar. No agreements were reached.”

Serbian-dominated army. See that? Serbian-dominated army. Yeah, imagine that. It was just like I said it was - a Serbian army taking orders from Serbia. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEEDE163CF934A25752C1A967958260

“Ha-ha. Pull the other one. This line is about a hundred years old and it’s as ridiculous now as it was then. It was used by Austria-Hungary to deflect attention from their own expansionism (such as the annexation of Serbian-majority Bosnia in 1908).”

Consider it a deflection all you like but it looks like Serbia is about to go in the toilet again over Kosovo. What will you do then? Cry?

Now, if you have any facts - which you could actually cite - please post them. Otherwise your side of this petty argument is looking as lost as Kosovo itself.

[OESY]

Kronos chooses his targets to maximize a sympathetic response. If not Germany, then the U.S., despite his hedge. He has trouble dealing with the fact that the primary war criminals of the Serbian Wars were Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic, all Serbs, and Serbia has done little to bring them and their accomplices to justice.

Now Serbia is threatening to sever diplomatic ties with any country in Europe or North America that recognizes Kosovo independence or attempts to stop the Serbian army from intervening--even if it means abandoning its bid to enter the EU and NATO.

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[kronos77]

Now Serbia is threatening to sever diplomatic ties with any country in Europe or North America that recognizes Kosovo independence or attempts to stop the Serbian army from intervening—even if it means abandoning its bid to enter the EU and NATO.

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And I am proud that we said that. Know what? Pro-western parties proposed this solution...

Man, upper statement confirms that Serbia is free, independent nation that dosent like to suck-up to no one.

Im proud to be Serb!

[Michael81Dus]

I fear you´re right. But we need a solution for Kosovo. I´m not sure if that´s independence. NATO protected Muslims from the Serbs in 1999, and since 2000, we protect the Christian Serbs. Both ethnic groups are not playing nice.

Sometimes I wonder how “developed” Europe is. We also have a EU member (Cyprus) and a EU applicant (Turkey) who both would fight over North Cyprus. Until a few years ago, we had bombs blowing up in the streets of Northern Ireland and some British cities. At least this conflict was solved peacefully.

It is not helpful in any ways to make accusations while ignoring your own history. Especially, when these accusations are unjustified and just serve political propaganda purposes. That´s what I´ve learned from my country´s past. Look at both sides and try to be fair, Kronos. Don´t just look at what your nation went through. Look at what the Kosovo Albanians went through, too.

I come to the conclusion that we need to replace the military forces by police forces. And we need a kind of road map to peace.

Btw, austrian, I was surprised to read that you (rightfully) argued that Germany did not start WW1 (alone).

“To sum up, the German government’s responsibility for the outbreak of the war was certainly larger than that of the French and British governments, but particularly in the light of aggressive Austro-Hungarian and Russian moves it would be wrong to blame Germany alone. The causes for the war are highly complex.” http://www.colby.edu/personal/r/rmscheck/GermanyC1.html

[Banat]

Incorrect.

Well, why don't you provide evidence to the contrary? Was Markovich Yugoslavia's PM during the break-up? YES. Was there a "Serbian Army" in Yugoslavia? NO. Was the JNA (Yugo Army) run by the Federal Defence Council which at the time was majority-Croat? YES.

The Yugoslavian Army was little more than the army of communist Serbia.

"Communist Serbia"? You fail to realize that Communism was the only ideology in YUGOSLAVIA, of which Serbia was part. Serbia was no more communist than Croatia -- the same party ran both of these republics.

I noticed you ignored the website I linked to. If you had, you would have seen this: “That May, Serbia upped the ante by blocking the installation of Stipe Mesic, a Croat scheduled to be the chairman of the rotating presidency in Yugoslavia.” So much for your vaunted federation.

BS. If Serbia had "blocked the installation" of Mesic, how come he became Yugoslavia's (last) President? He (prematurely) ended his mandate by saying: "My task is finished. Yugoslavia is no more."

As the NYTimes easily admitted: “Members of the federal military met with Croatian officials today in Zagreb, the Croatian capital, to discuss proposals for the withdrawal of the Serbian-dominated army from the republic and for relief shipments to besieged Croatian cities including Vukovar. No agreements were reached.”

No matter how hard you try to spin the story, Yugoslavia's National Army was not Serb-dominated. Just because the capital of Yugoslavia was Belgrade, it doesn't mean that Belgrade ran Yugoslavia or the Armed Forces. The NY Times is well-known for its bias. Even if they were impartial, just because a reporter from The Times says that the Armed Forces were Serb-dominated it doesn't mean that they actually were. Can you provide some evidence supporting your claim? Such as the ethnic make-up of the General Staff, for example?

Serbian-dominated army. See that? Serbian-dominated army. Yeah, imagine that. It was just like I said it was - a Serbian army taking orders from Serbia.

Again - forget the NY Times unless you want me to cite Politika from the early 1990s. You're right, though. The Army DID take orders from Serbia - after all the General Staff offices / Ministry of Defence was located in Belgrade, Serbia.

[Banat]

...primary war criminals of the Serbian Wars were Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic, all Serbs, and Serbia has done little to bring them and their accomplices to justice.

"Serbian Wars"? What is that? As for Serbia's "doing little"... are you serious? Serbia has extradited the entire military-political leadership to The Hague, including Milosevic. If the "international community" knows where Mladic and Karadzic are, I am sure Belgrade would be thankful for any info.

Now Serbia is threatening to sever diplomatic ties with any country in Europe or North America that recognizes Kosovo independence or attempts to stop the Serbian army from intervening--even if it means abandoning its bid to enter the EU and NATO.

Serbia has very little choice. The West provoked Belgrade into reacting in this manner by threatening to forcefully detach 15% of its territory and hand it over to a national minority that has engaged in terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

1. According to the Serbian Foreign Minister, Serbia will not intervene militarily, hence your accusation is baseless.

2. Serbia has no intention of joining NATO. In fact, Serbia's policy is one of neutrality (i.e. Serbia will not be joining any military blocs, ever).

3. Whether Serbia joins the EU or not depends on the EU's policy toward Serbia in regards to the Province of Kosovo-Metochia. Serbia will not trade Kos-Met for EU membership.

[OESY]

Your information is old. I give you three sources from today:



Serbia vows to block Kosovo independence push

Posted Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:27pm AEDT

The Serbian Parliament has voted overwhelmingly to prevent any attempt by the province of Kosovo to declare independence.

The authorities in Kosovo plan to declare their independence unilaterally in the next few weeks.

Several western countries have implied that they may recognise this.

The Serbian Parliament's resolution calls on the Government to defend Kosovo as an integral part of Serbia.

It says Serbia should reconsider its diplomatic and other relations with countries that might recognise Kosovo's independence.

It also said that any international treaty that Serbia signs, including ones that bring the country closer to joining the European Union, must recognise Serbia's sovereignty.

The province is still formally part of Serbia, but has been administered by the United Nations since 1999.

After eight hours of debate, Serbian MPs rejected the idea of the EU setting up a mission in Kosovo before the province's status is resolved.

- BBC

Serbia to Shun EU Path if Kosovo Independence Recognized: Serbia's parliament said it would "reconsider" diplomatic ties with Kosovo supporters

Serbia said it would reject any offer of membership of the European Union or NATO if they recognized the breakaway province of Kosovo as an independent state, raising the stakes in a long-standing diplomatic battle.

Serbia's national assembly voted 220 to 14 in favor of a resolution, which stated that Serbia would not sign international treaties that did not acknowledge its territorial integrity and sovereignty over Kosovo. The vote which took place on Wednesday, Dec 26, was specifically referring to the Stabilization and Association Agreement (SAA) which would move Serbia along the path to EU membership should it sign on next month.

As discussions began in the assembly earlier in the day, Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica said: "At this moment a powerful resolution which parliament will pass today must be our last line of defence from violence and unilateral independence."

Both President Boris Tadic and Prime Minister Kostunica, leaders of the two central parties in Serbia's center-right ruling coalition, backed the resolution, as did the nationalist Radicals and Socialists in the opposition.

But, the discussions over the resolution pitted parliament's nationalist and pro-Western parties against each other, with analysts speculating that the debate served more as a campaign platform for presidential elections in January.

The opposition Liberal Democratic party, led by Cedomir Jovanovic, rejected the resolution, saying the draft represented "a blow to Serbia's ambitions to become an EU member."

Pro-Western Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic expressed hope that Serbia would sign the SAA by the end of January, despite the resolution, but also without forfeiting sovereignty over Kosovo.

Serbia said it would postpone its decision on NATO membership, and said it would oppose a European Union supervisory mission ready to take over from the United Nations in Kosovo unless it won Security Council approval. Russia has already blocked the move in a bid to support its Serb ally.

"Serbia will never accept the independence of Kosovo," Tadic told parliament on Wednesday, adding that the diplomatic campaign against it would resume at a United Nations Security Council meeting scheduled for Jan. 9.

He also warned that if NATO peacekeepers failed to protect Kosovo's minority Serbs, "the Serbian Army is ready."

Most Serbs live in northern Kosovo -- more or less already partitioned from the area dominated by the 90-percent Albanian majority. Kosovars, for their part, are preparing to declare independence in the next few months, with support from the European Union and the United States.

The United States and a number of EU countries have indicated they will recognise a unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo Albanians, after the failure of almost two years of UN-sponsored negotiations on the southern Serbian province's status.

The United Nations has administered Kosovo since 1999, when a NATO bombing campaign drove out Serb forces who had fought ethnic Albanian separatists. 10,000 civilians had perished in previous clashes and 800,000 people were driven out of the country.

Serbia, which considers Kosovo its cultural cradle, has offered the two million Albanians in the breakaway province broad autonomy, but Kosovars insist on total independence.

Earlier on Wednesday, Serbia's war crimes prosecutor Vladmir Vukcevic said that wartime Bosnian Serb military leader Ratko Mladic was hiding in his country. He said that the "noose is tightening" around the fugitive, but said the officials did not yet know Mladic's precise location. [They know his location, but not his "precise" location at this very minute.]

It was the first admission by a Serbian official that Mladic, who is wanted for genocide and crimes against humanity for his role during the 1992-1995 war in Bosnia, is in hiding in Serbia. In particular, Mladic and Bosnian Serb wartime political leader Radovan Karadzic are wanted for the July 1995 massacre of some 8,000 Muslim men and boys in the eastern Bosnian enclave of Srebrenica.

Belgrade has repeatedly claimed it does not know Mladic's whereabouts. However, Carla Del Ponte, the outgoing chief prosecutor of the United Nations war crimes court in The Hague, Netherlands, has insisted he is in Serbia.



Serb EU snub is home politics: incoming EU presidency

Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:11am EST

By Manja Ulcar

LJUBLJANA (Reuters) - Serbia’s threat to turn its back on EU membership over Kosovo probably has more to do with electioneering than political reality, incoming EU president Slovenia said on Thursday.

“Nobody is being forced to become a member,” Slovene Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel said, adding that Serbs should ask themselves: “How can a country surrounded by European Union member states survive if it is not a member itself?”

Serbia’s parliament said on Wednesday it could turn its back on the EU and NATO, in a vote aimed at raising the stakes in its battle to stop the West from recognizing an expected declaration of independence by the majority Albanian province of Kosovo.

Parliament overwhelmingly backed a motion saying Serbia would not sign any treaty that did not acknowledge sovereignty over Kosovo — including the Stabilisation and Association Agreement (SAA) that would put it on track to join the EU.

It was backed by President Boris Tadic and Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, leaders of the two main parties in Serbia’s centre-right ruling coalition, and supported by ultranationalist Radicals and Socialists on the opposition benches.

In Brussels, an EU spokesman played down the threat.

“Our position is unchanged, that Serbia has European prospects just like all the other Western Balkan states, and that this issue should not be linked to Kosovo,” he said.

NATO said that, while the alliance had some low-level agreements with Serbia, there were no preparations for it to join nor had Serbia expressed interest in becoming a member.

“However, NATO believes the recipe for lasting stability in the Balkans is Euro-Atlantic integration, including Serbia. We certainly hope that process will continue,” a spokesman said.

NATO foreign ministers discussed in Brussels this month the growing anti-NATO rhetoric coming from Belgrade.

Rupel told Slovenia’s STA news agency the resolution should be viewed in the context of the coming presidential election in Serbia, a tight race between pro-Western Tadic and ultranationalist Tomislav Nikolic.

The motion was intended as a display of Serbian unity in the face of Western backing for Kosovo’s independence. It was a gesture that no major party — and no presidential frontrunner — dared to oppose, and it was adopted by 220 votes to 14.

“Most actions in Belgrade are intended for pre-election use,” said Rupel, whose country — the first republic to quit the Serb-dominated Yugoslav federation in back in 1991 — takes over the EU presidency on Jan 1.

EU and U.S. officials have urged Kosovo’s leaders to coordinate any independence move with the West, and expect the declaration to come around April.

Some diplomats believe the EU will offer Belgrade the chance before that to sign the SAA, the first step to EU entry.

Serbia’s resolution also stated that Serbia would shelve a decision on NATO membership and it would oppose an EU police and supervisory mission preparing to take over from the United Nations in Kosovo unless it won Security Council approval — which Russia has already blocked on behalf of its Serb ally.

(Additional reporting by Mark John)

(Writing by Douglas Hamilton; edited by Richard Meares)

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[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Well, why don’t you provide evidence to the contrary?”

Why don’t you provide evidence in the affirmative? Show us that the JNA was dominated by Slovenians. Show us that the Slovenians ran the airforce. How many planes did they have by the way?

“”Communist Serbia”? You fail to realize that Communism was the only ideology in YUGOSLAVIA, of which Serbia was part. Serbia was no more communist than Croatia — the same party ran both of these republics.”

And it was dominated by the Serbs.

“BS. If Serbia had “blocked the installation” of Mesic, how come he became Yugoslavia’s (last) President? He (prematurely) ended his mandate by saying: “My task is finished. Yugoslavia is no more.” “

The fact that he became it doesn’t mean he wasn’t blocked previously. And in any case, Serbia dominated Yugo. as everyone knows.

“No matter how hard you try to spin the story, Yugoslavia’s National Army was not Serb-dominated.”

Yeah, actually it was. And that’s a fact and not a spin.

“Just because the capital of Yugoslavia was Belgrade, it doesn’t mean that Belgrade ran Yugoslavia or the Armed Forces.”

Serbians ran the federal armed forces. Period.

“The NY Times is well-known for its bias. Even if they were impartial, just because a reporter from The Times says that the Armed Forces were Serb-dominated it doesn’t mean that they actually were. Can you provide some evidence supporting your claim? Such as the ethnic make-up of the General Staff, for example?”

LOL! Yeah, ignore the evidence and then demand evidence. Serbians dominated the JNA. Deal with it. Serbia will probably lose Kosovo. Deal with it.

“Again - forget the NY Times unless you want me to cite Politika from the early 1990s. You’re right, though. The Army DID take orders from Serbia - after all the General Staff offices / Ministry of Defence was located in Belgrade, Serbia.”

Serbians dominated the JNA.

How long will you cry if or when Serbia loses Kosovo? If Serbia had a real federation rather than dominating these other places, maybe none of this would have happened.

[Banat]

He also warned that if NATO peacekeepers failed to protect Kosovo's minority Serbs, "the Serbian Army is ready."

So, "if NATO peacekeepers failed to protect...". If you ask me, it's not "if" but rather "when."

Wait 'til March rolls around. According to an acquaintance of mine who is in the know, parts of the 63rd and the 72nd are already in the North.

[Banat]

The fact that he became it doesn’t mean he wasn’t blocked previously.

Oh, so you're changing the tune...OK, why didn't you mention that he *did* become President? Inconvenient?

And in any case, Serbia dominated Yugo. as everyone knows.

If Serbia had indeed dominated Yugoslavia, Mesic would have never become President (for example). "Everyone knows". That's what people say when they have no arguments to support their claims.

And that’s a fact and not a spin.

A fact, really? Back it up, sparky.

Serbians ran the federal armed forces. Period.

Back it up. Again - give us some information as to the ethnic make-up of the General Staff. Give us the names. Here, I'll help you - don't bother looking for the info on the Navy and the Air Force; these were headed by Croats.

Serbians dominated the JNA. Deal with it. Serbia will probably lose Kosovo. Deal with it.

Yeah, see... Wasn't "Kosova" supposed to become independent in February 2006, then April 2006, then Septemeber 2006...December 2006...March 2007...June 2007...December 2007? The deadline keeps getting pushed back. Serbia has veto power in the Security Council. It's called Russia. Can you deal with *that*?

Back to our issue: Can you provide some evidence supporting your claim? Such as the ethnic make-up of the General Staff, for example? The NY Times is hardly a credible source on the national defence issues of Tito's Yugoslavia. Gee, why don't you quote Wikipedia while you're at it?

How long will you cry if or when Serbia loses Kosovo?

Cry? Is that what you do when things don't turn out the way you want them to, sunshine? Not everyone's like you.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Oh, so you’re changing the tune...OK, why didn’t you mention that he *did* become President? Inconvenient?”

Nope. It’s not inconvenient in the least nor does it change anything I said.

“If Serbia had indeed dominated Yugoslavia, Mesic would have never become President (for example).

Wrong again. The one does not necessitate the other.

“Everyone knows”. That’s what people say when they have no arguments to support their claims.”

You have no argument. NONE. No sources either.

“A fact, really? Back it up, sparky.”

Disprove it, Sparky. I see no reason why I have to prove the obvious. You’re the one who is trying to overturn what is known. Go for it.

“Back it up. Again - give us some information as to the ethnic make-up of the General Staff.”

1) That wouldn’t necessarily prove anything.
2) No. You are the one trying to revise history. The burden is on your shoulders. Get to it.

“Give us the names. Here, I’ll help you - don’t bother looking for the info on the Navy and the Air Force; these were headed by Croats.”

Prove that matters. Prove they were not just figureheads like the head of the Polish airforce after WWII. Can you?

“Yeah, see... Wasn’t “Kosova” supposed to become independent in February 2006, then April 2006, then Septemeber 2006...December 2006...March 2007...June 2007...December 2007? The deadline keeps getting pushed back. Serbia has veto power in the Security Council. It’s called Russia. Can you deal with *that*?”

Will Russia be able to stop a country from declaring independence? Maybe, maybe not. Serbia has lost Kosovo in any case.

“Back to our issue: Can you provide some evidence supporting your claim?”

Can you support your claims?

“Such as the ethnic make-up of the General Staff, for example?”

Can you show how that must mean what you imply it means?

“The NY Times is hardly a credible source on the national defence issues of Tito’s Yugoslavia.”

Tito was long since dead already.

“Gee, why don’t you quote Wikipedia while you’re at it?”

Why don’t you cry about how Kosovo is the Serbian homeland. That fact has as much cache now as Wikipedia.

“Cry? Is that what you do when things don’t turn out the way you want them to, sunshine? Not everyone’s like you.”

No, some people are like you - they’re wrong.

[Hoplite]

You might find Reynaud Theunens work helpful, specifically Section II.

Point being, this has all been gone over previously, and is part of the historical record, so you may as well make use of that record.

[dennisw]

nato bombed serbia. so there have been many nations involved (btw. most bombs have been droped by US air force)but this is irrelevant. it was a nato operation. so you can not blame a single country. (maybe you could blame whole EU because they/we wanted serbia bombed)but i can not see germany taking a special role in this. (btw. in WWI austria invaded serbia not germany). and you can not compare germany in 1938 to germany in 2007.

INCORRECT!!!
Germany was the prime mover on the war on Serbs and bombing. But they had no air force they worked on Bill Clinton for years until he took action and bombed them

#2 Germany is the most powerful EU nation and most powerful NATO nation. It exercised this power to make war on Serbia via Bill Clinton and the USA

#3 Whatever side is fighting the Muslims is the side I'm on. So I backed the Serbs back then and still do. I despise Vlad Putin but still back the Serbs

[vladimir998]

Isn’t the most powerful NATO nation the USA?

[dennisw]

Isn’t the most powerful NATO nation the USA?

True but Germany is the most powerful NATO nation of Europe and is geographically much closer to Serbia & Kosovo so had much more interest in the fate of Kosovo

[avid]

I’m sure I have an opinion on this. I’m just too lazy thinking about it.

[montyspython]

How about answering the questions chief? Are you capable of that or are you going to spend bandwidth stroking yourself until you cream your pants?

How embarrassing for you.

[LjubivojeRadosavljevic]

You're wasting your time. That is, who at this juncture, and in this forum, is (are) going to spend the time to read and relate both the work and the testimony of Reynaud Theunens?

Think about it.:-)