Oh go take your flea powder you are starting ot make everyone itch!
Posted on 02/09/2008 1:36:43 PM PST by loreldan
Some 50 stalwarts of the political right privately met with Mitt Romney minutes after he dropped out of the Republican nominating race to discuss the former Massachusetts governor becoming the face of conservatism, as Ronald Reagan became en route to his 1980 election win.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
So you take the $ line argument back far enough, we're part of the problem as well (especially when we don't object or try to make a difference).
But I've been saying for almost 20 years that our whole culture undergirds the abortion industry.
But does that then mean because of our own often indirect ties to abortion that we can never speak out against it or those who expand its availability? (I don't think so)
So, the answer to your medicaid question is obvious. Of course, Hunter & the other legislatures fund abortions...and it's not limited to the example you gave. Are we to be ho-hum about that? (No)
So what then is a "reasonable" level of accountability to expect of a legislator, governor, or POTUS? My answer to that is to hold them accountable for a reasonable determination of their sphere of influence.
Example: A POTUS can implement the Mexico City Policy (like Reagan & George W. Bush) to keep $ out of the hands of the international abortion industry. A POTUS can also effect embryonic stem cell research policy. A POTUS can also nominate pro-life justices & other judges. A POTUS can put pro-lifers in key administrative/bureaucratic positions. A POTUS can even diminish domestic funding for the abortion industry.
Notice I said "diminish." I don't think it would be "reasonable" that a POTUS would be able to totally eliminate domestic funding of Planned Parenthood.
So you hold a rep accountable for the reasonable exercise of their sphere of influence. Example of a consideration: Did they seek or lead a policy or initiative that expanded abortion services--even if it was not the main thrust of the policy? A legislator voting for appropriations $ for Medicaid services isn't necessarily doing so. (You yourself showed that Medicaid funding in certain states doesn't cover abortion; secondly some states have more recently added "after-the-fact" court orders to previous-already-legislature-decided appropriations decisions. IOW, the funding decisions for abortion came in thru side-door judges, not front-door legislators. Please note that in my crit of Romney I've been consistent with that.
Countless times (a dozen or more) of posts I've haven't tried to hold Romney accountable for all 7% of the uninsured in MA now covered by RomneyCare. When folks pointed out that MA was under court order to fund low-income women Medicaid eligible, I didn't contend that. What I did contend was the over 4% of the MA population who earn above Medicaid level. Romney himself said that almost 1/4th of the MA uninsured earned $75,000 or more. That's almost 2% of the female pop in MA.
From other figures I extrapolated that another over 2% earn above Medicaid & below $75,000.
I think it is "unreasonable" to hold Romney accountable for the court order in MA aimed at low-income women. But they were less than 40% of the uninsured in MA. Therefore, the crit of $50 abortion subsidies in MA still holds.
“Governor Reagan had never really given the abortion issue much thought before he took office. Cannon demonstrates that when Reagan was first confronted with abortion in 1967 he was unusually indecisive and had a difficult time deciding what he should do with a liberal abortion bill winding its way through the state house in Sacramento.”
That’s some of the silliest (and least skillful) spin I’ve ever seen. One thing that can be concluded is that he was definitely not pro-life, or he would have had no problem deciding to veto the bill.
“I haven’t had time to really sit down and marshal my thoughts on that.”
Again, definitely not pro-life. He signed the abortion bill. This poor spinmeister concentrates on word games, whether or not Reagan was “adamantly” pro-choice. He was pro-choice based upon his actions, but his poor defenders play word games, Lol. It’s unreal that people present such nonsense as a reasonable defense for anything.
When do you think Reagan was able to conclude that abortion might be, er, wrong?
I never said he turned pro-life in 1984. I said that after he turned pro-life (a position which culminated with that book), he didn't flip back & forth, back & forth (like Romney did).
How long did it take Reagan to become pro-life?
He ran for POTUS on pro-life platforms. (Not sure of his early 70s position).
Reagan’s flip-flops on abortion
Here, let me use the argument so many Romney supporters have tried (since they didn't know Romney actually changed his position more than once): "He didn't flip-flop, he only 'flipped.'"
I defy you to find all the Reagan quotes on abortion, or for that matter, pick out any of the "politicians...over the years": Make a list of their statements on abortion...put them in any order. Then do a "mock" interview of them. They won't even come close to the ridiculous flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop statements made by Romney. (What's just about as bad in my opinion is that Romney's 2007 statements consistently shows that he really doesn't know the difference between "pro-life" and "pro-choice." Here ya go! Enjoy the twists & turns...better than any amusement park thriller...well, at least it is until you realized some kids got killed on the Romney Abortion Romp Ride...)
So here's a "mock" "interview" of Mitt--using his own actual words as the substantive part of his "responses" (his actual words are underlined):
Q Mr. Romney, tell us about how you've switched your attitude on abortion.
A "Yes. While I never said I was pro-choice... my position was effectively pro-choice." [Source: 2007 GOP Iowa Straw Poll debate 8/5/2007]
Q So since you're not "effectively pro-choice" anymore, you've changed. But what do you mean, "I never said I was pro-choice?" According to the records, didn't you say in 1994 that Women should be free to choose based on their own beliefs, not mine and not the government's?" [Source: Stephanie Ebbert, "Clarity Sought On Romney's Abortion Stance," The Boston Globe, 7/3/05] Didn't you follow that up 11 years later on May 27, 2005 after your pro-life "conversion" by saying "I am absolutely committed to my promise to maintain the status quo with regards to laws relating to abortion and choice?" Isn't "free to choose" and "promise to maintain...choice" the same thing as "pro-choice?" (Or are you just parsing words?) Didn't you also make multiple 'pro-choice' promises in 2002?"
A "I've made it quite clear since at least the Summer of 2001 that I do not wish to be labeled pro-choice." [Source: Mitt Romney, Letter to the Editor, The Salt Lake Tribune, 7/12/01]
Q "If you didn't want to be labeled as 'pro-choice' as of 2001, then why 'promise to maintain...choice' multiple times in both 2002 & 2005? (I guess I'm a bit befuddled here)"
A "Listen, I never called myself pro-choice. I never allowed myself to use the word pro-choice because I didn't FEEL I was pro-choice. I would protect the law, I said, as it was, but I wasn't pro-choice, and so..." [Source: Mitt Romney, interview with Fox Chris Wallace, Aug. 12, 2007]
Q "...But excuse me, sir, just because you in your internal conversations haven't labeled yourself 'pro-choice' doesn't mean that you haven't spent a dozen-year period between 1994 and 2005 spouting 'pro-choice' expressions. Isn't that so?
A "Listen, I am firmly pro-life… I was always for life." [Source: Jim Davenport, "Romney Affirms Opposition to Abortion," The Associated Press, 2/9/2007]
Q "But we started out this interview where you were totally coming clean on your past years and you said your 'position was effectively pro-choice.' What was your record as governor of Massachusetts, then?"
A "I've been quite forthright on my positions ever since I took the campaign trail in South Carolina in January of 2007. I'll repeat what I said then: 'Over the last multiple years, as you know, I have been effectively pro-choice.'" [Source: Bruce Smith, "Romney Campaigns in SC with Sen. DeMint," The Associated Press, 1/29/07]
Q "So we have established, then, that you were indeed 'pro-choice' over the last multiple years..."
A "...But you didn't let me finish. Eleven days after I made that statement, I also told South Carolina's citizens that 'I am firmly pro-life… I was always for life.'" [Source: Jim Davenport, "Romney Affirms Opposition to Abortion," The Associated Press, 2/9/2007]
Q "OK, I'm getting rather confused again. How can you be 'pro-choice'...over the last multiple years and yet 'always [be] for life?'"
A "Well, that's because of my track record as governor. You see 'As governor, I’ve had several pieces of legislation reach my desk, which would have expanded abortion rights in Massachusetts. Each of those I vetoed. Every action I’ve taken as the governor that relates to the sanctity of human life, I have stood on the side of life.'"
Q "But why did you then tell me that 'Over the last multiple years, as you know, I have been effectively pro-choice?'"
A "Well, some people interpret it that way because of $50 Commonwealth Care abortions and a Planned Parenthood League representative who in now permanently attached to that process."
Q "But you've told me that 'every action' you took 'as the governor that relates to the sanctity of human life' you 'stood on the side of life?'"
A "Uh, excuse me, but my press secretary just handed me a copy of my Katie Couric interview on embryonic stem cell research, and I want to review it...feel free to watch":
COURIC INTERVIEW: "...surplus embryos...Those embryos, I hope, could be available for adoption for people who would like to adopt embryos..."
Q "Wow, Mitt, that's great. I don't think I've ever heard a POTUS candidate ever talk about adopting frozen surplus embryos before. That's great!"
A "Shh. (You'll miss my next sentence)"
COURIC INTERVIEW: "But if a PARENT decides they would want to donate one of those embryos for purposes of research, in my view, that's acceptable. It should not be made against the law." [Dec. 5, 2007 interview with CBS' Katie Couric]
Q "So 'pro-choice' parents--and you admit they are 'parents' of adoptable embryos--if they 'decide' to 'donate' a young one for purposes of dissection...that's 'acceptable?' [More head shaking] And this was the very issue that 'converted' you to the "I was always for life" 'new' position, eh?"
You ignored this quoting from 1968 ‘In fact, Cannon writes that in 1968, the year after the bill passed, Reagan said that “those were awful weeks,” and that he would never have signed the bill if he had “been a more experienced governor.”’
I don’t think that you realize how little abortion was on the radar then, but here is an excellent description of why your attack on Reagan has nothing to do with clearing up the 2005 Romney.
“”And I laid out in my view that a civilized society must respect the sanctity of life. And you know what? I’m following in some pretty good footsteps.
It’s exactly what Ronald Reagan did. As governor, he was adamantly pro-choice. He became pro-life as he experienced life.””
Adamantly. Romney told us that as California Governor, Ronald Reagan was stubbornly unyielding in his support for abortion rights. Oh, please forgive me if I’m shaking a little, but for gawdsakes, the President isn’t alive to defend himself from this stuff. This is a “fib,” and we have discussed this here last month.
Here is a description of the Therapeutic Abortion Act, which Governor Reagan signed in 1967:
It was “sold” as a compassionate law that would be used to deal with the “hard cases.” This statute allowed the termination of pregnancy by a physician, in an accredited hospital, when there was a specific finding that there was a substantial risk that its continuation would “gravely impair the physical or mental health of the mother,” or when the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest. However, the law did provide that no termination of pregnancy could be approved after the 20th week of pregnancy.
The law Reagan signed would be “unconstitutional” under Roe v. Wade; in fact, the California Supreme Court tossed it in 1972.
In Reagan’s owned words from In His Own Words, transcribed by commenter Thomas TomlinsonDouthat, Reagan wrote:
Now, with regard to the permissive bill I supposedly signed, let me give you the correct history of what took place early in my term as governor. A bill was introduced that was permissive, indeed was abortion on demand. Naturally, there was great controversy about this bill. The author finally sent word that he would amend his bill to anything the governor would sign. Faced with this responsibility, I probably did more study and more soul searching on the subject that I had done on anything in my eight years as governor. I came to the conclusion, as I have already stated, that it [abortion] could only be justified to save a human life. The matter of health—meaning the permanent damage to the health of the mother if she went through with her pregnancy—was brought up. It seemed to me that the mother would have the right to protect herself from permanent damage just as she would be able to protect herself, even if it meant taking a life, from someone threatening her with mayhem, so I agreed to that provision. I thought there was adequate provision in the bill requiring responsible boards in the medical profession to declare such permanent harm would follow the birth of the child. Perhaps it was my inexperience in government, but, like so many pieces of legislation, there were loopholes that I had not seen, and the thing that made the California abortion bill become somewhat permissive in nature was violation of the spirit of the legislation by the groups that were supposed to police it. This was particularly true in the case of psychiatrists. If faced with the same problem today, I can assure you I would make sure there were no loopholes in the bill....
At the point that he signed the bill, Ronald Reagan was adamantly pro-life. Romney had said, in his previous incarnation, that he would support Roe v. Wade, abortion on demand, no matter what. Reagan said that he would support abortion only if it would save the mother’s life and, in the extreme circumstance, health.
But as Reagan admitted, he had been snookered. Romney was not.
Note that Romney said that Reagan’s soul searching came in the years following his signing of that bill, “as he experienced life.” That is not the case. His soul searching came before he signed the bill, though his advocacy of life became stronger as infants became more threatened.
You’re right. It’s obvious Duncan Hunter is the man who can lead the conservative movement out of the wilderness. /do I really have to type “sarcasm”?
Perhaps not Hunter, but can we at least insist on it being a f****g conservative?
It would sure be nice if one of you guys that know how to do ping lists and such, would start a ping list to defend Ronald Reagan.
It looks like the anti Reagan efforts are not going away.
The more you try, the sillier it becomes. Everyone spins and revises to explain the prior mistakes. I don’t think it’s any grave sin that Reagan or Romney committed. But what was it Regan didn’t understand in 1967. Did he know how babies were conceived, gestated and born? Why did he think abortion had been illegal almost forever?
He and his worshipers are just spinning to explain away his mistakes and inconsistencies in the past. The same as other politicians and their spinners do, like the pro-life, and pro-second amendment Clinton and Gore when they were running for state office in the South.
You’re recycling the same old spin about “adamant” or not. All political spin.
Much agreed. Many of us have seen the same ability in Romney that Reagan had to articulate conservatism. Wonderful that other's also see it and approached Governor Romney about it. : )
Ping! A most appropriate role for Romney!
Now that FDT is in the job pool again, he needs to find a forum like Reagan had with General Electric Theatre to put his views out there in with commentary on the issues of the day, downright wholesome entertainment, etc. Maybe he can get his ol’ boss Dick Wolf to produce it. Despite cancer issues, Thompson’s not that old, and could still serve a good 4-8 years starting in 2012.
Thanks so much for posting the link!
When you really think of it who spend their 24/7 time, money, and effort, and being gracious at the end.
He never got the excessive free media coverage that McCain and Huck did, and the many good things he did if it was reported the titled were negative and if one did not take time to read it, they would just log in their mind that distorted title.
So many have said when they did take the time to listen or to catch something Mitt said, or did they were pleasantly surprised!
Ladies and Gentlemen, the only way we will get Reagan back is if we clone him (like they did on ST-TNG where the Klingons cloned Khaless), and then we’re running into a slight inconvenience called the 22nd Amendment.
LoL! Good one. : )
“But what was it Regan didn’t understand in 1967. Did he know how babies were conceived, gestated and born?”
You have made a couple of posts which seem to indicate that you are young, that is one of them. I remember that bill, and like Reagan I thought that it was for the life of the mother.
By 1968 Reagan had made public what a mistake he had made.
What does any of this have to with a man that is older than me, the 60 year old sometimes abortion counselor Bishop Mitt Romney.
How is it that the he didn’t change his mind about the bill in 1968 like Reagan, why did he never change, decade after decade, election after election, Reagan came and went and was replaced by the 1994 Gingrich revolution, the 90s, Bush vs Gore, nothing affected Romney until the beginnings of this present campaign.
During the later of those years Romney was one of the most passionate, eloquent defenders of the pro abortion position in the nation from either party (we have video of his sincerity and passion).
Time and history and movements had no effect on the man.
Governor Romney was optimistic and gracious to the end, you are right, resty. All his supporters, his Mormon brothers and sisters and his family and friends have so much to be proud of!!!
He will be back in 1212, as long as the good Lord sees fit to keep him healthy, I am sure of it. And he will win! : )
What is tiresome is being stalked by you through various threads with nothing but personal attacks in violation of FR rules and respect.
Constantly trying to make it personal with me is against FR policy.
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