Posted on 08/08/2008 10:43:34 AM PDT by Jeff Head
Here are numerous pictures from various online Russian and Georgian news outlest of the conflict in Georgia where Russia has now intevened on the ground and in the air and invaded Georgia over the Ossetian Seperatists.
Russian tanks and vehicles moving toward and into Georgia
Russian aircraft attackintg Georgia positions
Georgian troops movingn toward the fighting
Burniing Georgian Armor
Georgian forces engaging seperatists
You are wrong. Congress has been given the power to declare war it is true. But one can be at war without or prior to such a declaration recognizing that a state of war exists.
Check out Roosevelt's speech on December 8, 1941.
I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.
Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.
With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. So help us God.
I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, Dec. 7, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.
Thus the state of war existed *before* Congress made its declaration.
Wrong the georgians use US trucks and uniforms those are Georgian soldiers
OK If you say so....
Then why are all the other Georgian trucks and uniforms different?
the closest truck is a US made M35 duece and a half the one in the back ground is a MAN or GAZ.
Okay when Russia lets Chechnya go. ridiculous huh??
I never recommended US manpower.
Georgia adopted Christianity in the 1st centuryAD.
http://ggdavid.tripod.com/georgia/history.htm
St. George’s Cross is immediately evident. Interesting that this flag was adopted in ‘04 and was actually the flag of the “ruling” political party and was viewed by some as anti-democratic.
Flag info: http://www.aboutgeorgia.net/profile/flags.html
I don’t disagree with you. Have they signed the cease fire yet? They almost certainly will.
If they don’t soon, THEN take action or if Russia states it is to stay in Georgia and reoccupy, then take action. Russians will withdraw BUT most certainly will be back to fully dominate and control the country. After this skirmish Georgia may be considered a Democracy in name but become a puppet State.
The USA must go hugely energy independent now. Then we can create a new Cold War2 strategy.
Use of AC-130s requires a very permissive air environment. We wouldn't have that at first, when the tank columns need to be stopped. The A-10 is somewhat vulnerable, but it can run and hide among the tree tops, which the Spectre/Spooky can't. Even in Vietnam the older models required fighter escorts, and that was a more permissive environment, mostly, than you'd have the Backyard of the Bear.
Or another Pearl Harbor. While more died on 9/11, Pearl Harbor was much more of a threat to the nation's physical security.
Ask the people of the Republic of Vietnam. You can probably find some of them down at the nail salon in the strip mall.
SU-24 mig 27 does not have radome.
SU-24. Mig 27 does not have radome.
The attack was in response to the breaking of the ceasefire, by the Ossetia separatists. They bear the responsibility, and by the speed of the Russian response, they were egged on, at a minimum, by the Russians.
I see the Russian flag on one of the vehicles. Whose militia I wonder?
The Georgians went into the region when the Ossetian fighters not only broke the cease fire, but threatened to hit the oil line, as I undertsand. Georgia could not tolerate that, either politically or economically.
The Russians, IMHO, probably egged thois on and maybe even staged it to give themselves the pretext when the Georgians responded as they had to do.
Now there is an ongoing, serious military confrontation and war. But there are choke points the Georgians can use, and a lot of the terrain is beneficial to them fighting against armor.
For example, if the Georgians were able to close down the big tunnel, that would severely hamper the flow of Russian equipment into certain parts of the Province and certainly would cut off (for a time) those who are there...hence the Russians getting as many through there as fast as possible.
Personally, as I have said before, I believe the Georgians will account well for themselves, both in terms of manuever warfare, and, if it comes to is, in terms of guerilla warfare.
That will depend on what the Russians aims are. Do they just want to push the Georgians back from this one province, bloody their nose and send them and the other former satellites a message? Or, will they expand to other provinces and move deeper into georgia with the purpose of deposing the current government and installing their own puppet and then, OBTW, being in defacto control of that oil line?
We can help, and I believe it has to be forthright, but also very measured and careful. IMHO, we should communicate directly, without fanfare but in unmistakable terms that we are serious about providing whatever logistical, material, and G2 support to the Gerogians that we can and that the situation is likely to be extremely costly for the Russians as long as they remain on soveriegn Georgian soil.
We have the satellite and the electronic capability to stand off from Georgia and help in this manner. We have the capability to provide all types of material support in trade.
I do not believe we are prepared or that it would be wise, short of Russians killing American soldiers in Georgia, to put any boots on the ground or combat aircraft in the air.
But I would watch the Ukraine and other satellite states in that regard, because they may provide more support.
This is a message the Russians are sending. it is a message to all the former block states, it is a message to Europe, and it is a message to US.
Part of it is Russian frustration over the move of so many of their former "satellite" states towards NATO and the EU and them not being able to stop it. Part of it is the old Russuan desire for lareg buffers between their soil and any large, capable nation's influence on their borders, another big part of it is oil and that major pipelie that Georgia has crossing it.
I do believe that we have to respond strongly to this message or the Russians will be emboldened on other fronts.
If the Russians bloody the Georgian's nose in that one Provence, push the Georgians back, and then pull back themselves...there is a chance that things can cool down.
But if the Russians expand this to other provinces and keep moving deeper into Gerogia with any aim to depose the Georgian government, install their own puppet, and gain defact contro over that oil, then you will see increasing aid of all sorts going to Georgia from a number of countries to try and prevent that.
It is a very dangerous situation, but one that the Russians have clearly thought out (and were prepared for BTW, the movement of their armor and large numbers of troops didn't happen in a few hours or a couple of days...they have been planning this) and one where they are risking a high stakes military gambit under the auspice of "protecting" their "people" who live in Georgia. Sounds all the world like Hitler and the Sudetenland in 1938 in that regard.
IMHO, we have to be firm and we have to be measured and careful at the same time...but we do need to respond strongly and with more than words. Words is exactly what Putin is counting on.
Now, having said all of this, at this time in history, with these types of situations going on, and with the only two candidates that stand a chance of winning the Presidency in the US, which one of these two men do you want at the helm?
Frogfoot is also a Sukoi. (Сухой). Both the Su-24 and Su-25 (Fencer and Frogfoot respectively) are getting pretty long in the tooth, although the Frogfoot is not as old a design as the US A-10.
Thanks for your input. It seems that South Ossetia is very close to North Ossetia, and receives almost all supplies from them due to the conflict.
The Roki pass and tunnel is the easiest way into and out of this very mountainous region. Many sites describe the area outside of the big cities as lawless.
If the distance is not too difficult, bombing the tunnel would completely shut off most of South Ossetia and the Russian troops. Should not be surprised to learn that this armor was prepositioned looking for an opportunity to be used.
My gut feeling is that Georgia can't attack the pass or it would have already done so.
Very difficult when the entire province is already a defacto separate state.
That would be pretty stupid. The real spies are probably ethnic Chinese, and the space based assets don't care about any steenking "restrictions".
Equally critical for Ruissian units to either prevent counter attack, or extend their own offensive. Watch that town...if the Russians move to take it, then there is a high liklihood (IMHO) that they are going to extend their offensive beyond Ossetia.
I have read and heard reports that as many as 10-15 Russian aircraft have been downed and seen bloody pictures of dead Russian pilots.
I believe the Georgian anti-air will be effective against the close support the Russians will be doing, but also believe that they do not have a large enough Air force to press an air attack against the tunnel...though if they were going to try and use their air force, that would be a critical thing to use it for.
The match is now. It's fish or cut bait time.
I predict we whine and cut bait.
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