Posted on 08/22/2008 8:46:44 PM PDT by neverdem
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Ping
Thanks for the link!
Ping for later...
A-10s to take care of the ground stuff, F-22s to take care of the quick air response.
The subs to take care Russia.
Help me out. What were his earlier aggression(s)?
How do we get them there? Newly minted Islamist Turkey was purchsed withn Iranian natural gas, threats from Moscow, and its own hatred of America in the region.
That is above my pay grade. I am a civilian.
It was just a dream.
The neoconservatives
The idea of extending NATO was sound and still achievable. Half of Georgia might still be saved and a ring extending up to the Baltics can be established.
The paleoconservatives
They are wrong that Putin is only protecting his rightful national interests. He is protecting the natural interests of an autocrat and that is by definition illegitimate and not "rightful". He is however protecting his "perceived" national interests. Georgia did not "deserve" the Russian invasion. That is an outrageous and indefensible observation. The paleos are correct that we should cut a deal with Putin but on the basis of strength and with Putin dealing to protect his cash flow. The paleos are absolutely correct in saying that this is a question of America's national security interest and the national security interests of Israel are irrelevant.
The realists
They are right in insisting that we define our national interest. Emotional reaction is very, very dangerous. It might well be possible to establish a ring around Russia which includes half of Georgia. The extension of Western influence via NATO was done because an event such as this was prudently feared. Russia is only humiliated because it chooses to be an autocracy rather than a democracy. The world need not accommodate itself to that choice except at the point of defeating its own national interests. The role of honor in determining international policy should be admitted only very carefully and certainly not when your allies (the Europeans) regard acting out of honor to be cowboy diplomacy. If your allies deal only in their own self-interest without reference to honor, they will play your commitment to honor quite cynically. It is quite good advice to refrain from issuing promises that you cannot keep, especially if those promises include commitments from your NATO allies which you cannot enforce.
The left wing
No comment necessary here except to observe that this is the triumph of moral relativism perfected in The Frankfurt School. Moral relativism on Parade.
The liberal mainstream
Watered-down moral relativism. We can learn very little from NATO's involvement in Afghanistan except to provide a sober realization that European contributions to multilateral efforts will always be a day late and a dollar short. The liberal reaction of involving the United Nations etc. is a transparent effort to disguise capitulation. Moral relativism in disguise.
The Europeans
The Europeans have a real and substantial interest in the continued supply of gas and oil from Russia. That being said, the Europeans should recognize that the Russians have perhaps an even greater need to supply that oil and gas. The European politicians will find a way to do nothing by placing the blame on the United States and it does not matter whether George Bush is in office or Barak Obama. The Americans must contrive ways to make the Europeans choose our side. A very, very difficult undertaking.
The rest of America
America now knows the way it saw the world was all wrong. America is awakening to the danger not only of Russia but of an expansionist Russia in league with other oil-producing countries such as Iran and Venezuela. America is becoming alert to the fact that Russia is willing to play the nuclear card with Islamo fascists. America is awakening to the reality that there will not be meaningful cooperation with Russia concerning Iran. America is coming to the conclusion that it must identify and act in its national self interests with a very hardheaded and, if need be, ruthless determination.(he said with his fingers crossed and his head bowed in an attitude of prayer).
Agreed, Putin has not used large scale military aggression before but he has been engineering a conflict with the west for some years.
Hanson could be referring to Russia’s deployment of mobile the Topol-M, and the decision to MIRV Topol-M in 2006. The US is no longer deploying new offensive nuclear systems.
Then again, he could be referring to the assassination of Litvinenko in London using radioactive materials in November of 2006.
Putin has threatened aggression in the past against any NATO country hosting US BMD systems and he attempted to assassinate against Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko. If I were Mr. Saakashvili I wouldn’t be riding in any aircraft, I’d have myself a food taster and I’d have two guys watching my back whenever I had to take a leak (Caracala decido est).
I think when the history of Cold War II is written historians will say that it started in the fall of 2006.
I’m with the Realists. About the only thing we can do for Georgia now is to treat their wounds. Their economy and infrastructure have been obliterated by the Russians, and it seems like they’re going to maintain enough of a presence to make sure Georgia can’t rebuild in a timely manner. Sending humanitarian convoys is a good move that forces their hand to divest from Georgia proper somewhat, but the Russians know that we can’t afford a direct confrontation politically, logistically and financially.
bttt
bttt
IABUSF: Your #11 is very good except that Pooty the Poisoner was engineering conflict with the West at least back as far as 1998.
Please see: http://www.washtimes.com/news/2004/oct/29/20041029-110322-3343r/
Excellent report on how Pooty had Russian generals in Iraq organizing Saddam’s side of the war (nice job there BTW, Russia—very intimidating NOT), hauling away the WsMD (including Russian weapons) when it became evident after a week or two that the Russian run war was a disaster. How humiliating it must have been for little Pooty. A smarter man would want to avoid a rerun.
Also: “The generals had made some 20 visits to Iraq in the past five or six years [BEFORE 2003] and appeared to be playing a role in preparing the Iraqi military for conflict, the newspaper stated.”
That’s one of HIS earlier aggressions.
Pooty’s been hooked up with Iran helping them kill our soldiers in Iraq and he’s trying soooo hard to keep his Islamofascist allies safe until they can nuke us or our allies. I hope it’s because he knows he can’t afford to do so. That’s good because it shows some degree of contact with reality—possibly even sanity.
I think it’s important for FReepers to realize that the Vlad trolls on FR have two purposes: One is to propagandize, attempt to intimidate, pretend to be one of us reinforcing the “better red than dead” attitude that actually very few here share.
The second, and maybe more important function, is to evaluate the strength or weakness of ordinary American citizens’ reaction to this craven invasion: are we intimidated? how many people? how cowed are we?
Will we support strong action by the American military against the Russian invaders?
I think we should let them know that we support strong action against the invaders a lot more than we do just words.
Nobody sane wants a nuclear war, but nobody with even a small crumb of courage wants to grovel and cave because one is threatened. If pooty is insane, there will be a nuclear war no matter what we do (unless the Russian people force a regime change in Russia).
The more we cave, the weaker we look, the worse and more often the atrocities come and the more likely we end up nuclear in the end—not by our INSTIGATION. The sooner Pooty and pals understand they can’t get away with it, the sooner their crap stops and the better for the whole world including Russia.
One more question in my mind: will the trolls have the guts to tell their handlers the truth about Americans or will they tell them what they want to hear.
Please see the link in my #15 re: documentation of Russia’s working in collaboration with Islamofascists and directly agains the USA going back to at least 1998. Also my take on the two functions of Vlad trolls on FR.
Talk is cheap my friend. North Korea hijacked one of our naval ships on the high seas and I understand still have it on display. Iran sacked our embassy and all we did was talk . Sometimes it's the right strategy.
But now we have CRITICAL problems on our border, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the destroy democracy America Democrat party in DC. And you want to risk war with Russia over a banana Republic border dispute? Crazy!!
I think it’s important for FReepers to realize that the Vlad trolls on FR have two purposes:
The neocons on this site have four, demonise Russia no matter what, smear Christianity and American culture, wind up owning all the money in the world, and hang on to Israel. I go along with the last one, despite the ingratitude.
You seem to get off on the Pootie word. Like you're playing the race card. I'm not impressed or amused.
Its frighting to think of BO as the leader of the free world. Weakness whether its real or perceived will lead to war.
Please take the time to watch the video at this link.
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