An Ugly Attack on Mormons

I said:

I would very much like more information on that, as it has been my understanding that Mormon’s see Jesus as a man and a brother to man, but not the same as God.

Do Mormon's believe Jesus was a man, not divine? (yes or no will do)

Do Mormon's see Jesus as a son of God the same way you are a son of God?(yes or no again)

If you can't answer that here, fine, just tell me, but don't send me off somewhere else when the answer is yes or no. I'm sorry if my original question (using the phrase more information was probably what caused the misunderstanding) gave the impression I wanted a longer answer.

hmmm....

It gives a reson (like I need one!) to post Scripture!

THESE are the Scriptures that mention Anti-Christ:

NIV 1 John 2:18-29
18. Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
19. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
21. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
22. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
23. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
25. And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
26. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
27. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
28. And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

NIV 1 John 4:1-3
1. Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

NIV 2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Now THESE are about the BEAST:

NIV Revelation 13:1-18
1. And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast .

4. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5. The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
9. He who has an ear, let him hear.
10. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
11. Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
12. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
13. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
14. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17. so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

And THOSE are ALL the Scriptures pertaining to 666.

P.S., do you know how Mormons feel about traditional Christians? Not nice.

LOL! How many Mormons do you actually know?

I have tons of non-Mormon friends, I have FLDS friends, Catholic friends, Some Baptists, a pentecostal, and some Buddhists.

Mormons love to make protestant friends, because they make great Mormons (It's a joke, OK?)

Gee, good thing your post wasn’t the 666 one on this thread!

(chuckle)

But YOU, Reno are guilty of trying to do what only God can, and that is reading the heart of another....shame, shame.

You CAN mindread on NON-Religious Forum: can't you?

Yoohoo... RESTY!!

DU is calling...

You CAN mindread on NON-Religious Forum: can't you?

You may, but can you?

have you ever noticed we ignore many of your posts?

Yes; I have. But make you think I'm wrinting to YOU anyway??

I did.

Merely reported.

The Lurkers can decide on their own. I doubt they'll need much EXPLAININ' done!

It’s none of your business what they believe. Are they forcing it on YOU? Doesn’t say much for your religion that you are so willing to bear false witness, does it?

You know, AuntB, by your very own standard, it's none of your business what MS believes about what they believe. (So practice your own standard). Also, is MS forcing her understandings of LDS on YOU? (No) As for your outright slander of MS as bearing false witness, your ignorance slip is showing (read below).

““P.S., do you know how Mormons feel about traditional Christians? Not nice.”” All I asked was an example of your claim. Didn’t give us any proof,did ya?

You want proof? (Here's proof) Read them (don't remain ignorant). Contemporary Mormons revere their "prophets and apostles" -- past and present. They believe they reveal anew God's Word.

LDS Founder Joseph Smith "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:] 'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Brigham Young said that the "Christian God is the Mormon's Devil..." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, page 331). • stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230). •

Orson Pratt (LDS apostle) proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255). •

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172). •

LDS President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127). •

Bruce R. McConkie (LDS apostle) said, "What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power?.... It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel.... It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini." (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55.)

Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President) -- "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation that was not, in the year 1820, so obscured by false tradition and ceremonies, borrowed from paganism, as to make it unrecognizable; or else it was entirely denied ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the `Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:282).

I don't think there is a person (besides you) on this thread that thinks I am afraid of arguing my position.

I don't think there is a person (besides you) on this thread that thinks I SAID that you were afraid of arguing your postiton.

I disTINCTLY said AVOIDED it.

LC, you are not a prophet or you'd have better things to do.

True - no malls for me to cut the ribbon at or real estate deals to finalize.

(We note that you did NOT say anything I posted to you was WRONG.)

The way you guys are saying it,

Why do QUOTES from your past leaders UPSET you so?

They way 'we' say it... HA!

Thanks for that Elsie.

OK - so actually - you keep getting “the number” so you can post those passages.

Not bad, not bad.

I got the NUMBER!!!!!

It suits you... (you did ask for it ;-)

Congratulations!

The difference is that I'm not in the business of berating your beliefs & calling your church satanic & otherwise.

Yup. YA can't improve on what the BoM already says!

"It wasn't meant for the church to be popular or all hell would want to join us" -- Brigham Young

Is THIS doctrine?

I'll answer: NO!

For that is EXACTLY what we Evangelicals want: all HELL to join us!

NOW! Not after they're gone and we have to do a proxy baptism for 'em!

Listen to me. As I’ve said before I will NOT read all your dogma. This is about Mormon bashing....like they are the scariest people you have to worry about! They are no threat to any of us.

Grow up!

I see, what we have here is a lack of common definitions.

NO!

I am SHOCKED!!

TRULY Shocked, I say!

Mormon versus Christian definitions

Word...	Mormon	Christian
Atonement	(1) Used almost exclusively as a reference to Jesus' conquering physical death for all people. By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for all people to enter again into the presence of Heavenly Father - if for no other reason than to be judged by him. In other words, they are again 'at-one' with him (atoned). This will happen at Judgment Day. Those who have earned it will live in the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father. Everyone else will live outside of the presence of Heavenly Father. (2) At times atonement includes the thought of Jesus' paying for people's sins. But underlying all such references is the thought that they have to pay him back. For a good example of the LDS view of Jesus' atoning work, see Gospel Principles chapter 12.	Jesus' complete payment, made once, for all the sins of all the people of the entire world. Hebrews 7:27: Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 1 Peter 3:18: For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. Through faith in Jesus' payment, we are given eternal life in heaven.
Bible	One of four books Mormons consider scripture. They believe it to be the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly" (Eighth Article of Faith). They believe many precious parts have been lost from it (1 Nephi 13:28). Consequently they consider it the least reliable of the scriptures. Many Mormons are not familiar with it.	The inspired, complete and inerrant Word of God.
Damnation	Mormon's Plan of Salvation outlines an intricate process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation). Anything that stops a person in their progression, such as dying without having a celestial marriage, is considered damnation as it blocks or dams their progression.	The consequence of unbelief. Unbelief results in damnation, that is, suffering eternal punishment in hell.
Eternal Life (Exaltation)	Living eternally as a god, synonymous with godhood and exaltation. "Exaltation means the same thing as eternal life" (Learn of Me, p. 72). Eternal life is reserved for those who attain the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Mormons must become perfect, have received their endowment, and been married in the temple (Celestial Marriage) before they can earn eternal life. This eternal life will be lived both with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom and as god over their own world which they will populate with their own children.	By faith in Jesus' payment for our sins, we are given the gift of eternal life living with God in heaven as his children.
Faith	(1) The belief that God exists and has given a good plan of salvation (Mormonism). (2) The power God gives Mormons whereby they can resist sin and become perfect. "But he must believe the truth, obey the truth, and practice the truth, to obtain the power of God called faith" (Past Living Prophet and President Brigham Young quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church Brigham Young p. 56). The more righteous a person is, the more power (faith) God will give him. "To those who have not begun the quest of comprehension, the word faith appears to be only a synonym for a kind of belief or conviction....It is a principle of power" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 82).	The sure hope of our deliverance from death to eternal life in heaven. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness	Must be earned through what may be "weeks, years, or centuries" of effort. To be forgiven of a sin, one must meet the demands of the LDS definition of repentance for that sin. God 'remembers' the original sin and you lose your forgiveness if you recommit the sin.	The undeserved gift of having your sins separated from you "as far as the east is from the west". Because Jesus paid our penalty as our substitute, we are considered guiltless by God. God does not remember our sins.
Gift	Mormonism has expanded the definition of the term 'gift'. The expanded definition includes as 'gifts' things which are rewarded to an individual only after first completing certain requirements or first demonstrating sufficient worthiness. The expanded definition also includes as 'gifts' things which once received, obligate the receiver to a set of conditions; which, if broken revoke the 'gift'. Most 'gifts' in Mormonism actually fall under the expanded part of the Mormon definition (eternal life, grace, forgiveness, the help of the Holy Ghost, most of God's many blessings). Mormon doctrine goes so far as to say that God is 'obligated' to give a particular 'gift' once the prescribed prerequisites have been achieved by the receiver of the gift. Most of the 'gifts' of Mormonism are not gifts but rewards, compensation, obligatory payments, and contracts.	A gift is something we receive which is undeserved, unearned, offered freely by the bestower.
Gospel	A term that refers to Mormonism in general. Or in particular, Mormonism's intricate plan of salvation. "Mormonism so-called - which actually is the gospel of Christ, restored anew this day" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 176).	The "Good News" of free and full salvation (eternal life with God in heaven) won for mankind by Jesus Christ.
Grace	The power God gives people to save themselves, conditional on their earning it by doing all they can do on their own. "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697). "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). This grace does not directly provide them with eternal life, but rather with the power to make up the difference between "all they can do" and perfection.	The unconditional, free gift of eternal life given us through faith in Jesus' saving work. Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹not by works, so that no one can boast.
Heaven	Any of the three kingdoms Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. Life even on the lowest kingdom will be much better than earth, and even the vilest of unbelievers will receive a life in heaven. "The book (Doctrine and Covenants) explains clearly that the lowest glory to which man is assigned is so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man. It is a doctrine fundamental in Mormonism that the meanest sinner, in the final judgment, will receive a glory which is beyond human understanding, which is go great that we are unable to describe it adequately." (John A. Widtsoe, quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 166). Yet, even in the highest kingdom all but those who have earned exaltation will have less than complete happiness. "How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity!" (Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 19).	God's glorious home, where all who believed in Jesus' saving work will live forever happy with him. Revelations 21:3-4: And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.".
Hell	(1) Not a place of eternal punishment but the temporary state of suffering wicked spirits experience in spirit prison before Judgment Day. "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of resurrection is called hell....Hell will have an end" (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 165). (2) The regret the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will experience as they see the glories of the celestial kingdom is described in Mormon literature as a kind of hell. (3) Mormons call Satan's domain Outer Darkness. Only those who leave the LDS church are sent to Outer Darkness.	Satan's domain of unending torment. Mark 9:47-48: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, ⁴⁸where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ All unbelievers will be cast into hell. Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Justification	Unfamiliar term to most Mormons. Mormonism describes it as God's strict confirmation of the merits or demerits of man's own actions. In other words, LDS justification is God's act of rewarding people on their own actions, rewarding right and punishing wrong.	God declares us (believers) not guilty on the basis of Christ's atoning work.
Paid - As in "Jesus paid for my sins".	Mormonism uses the word 'paid' as a synonym for 'refinanced'. When a Mormon says "Jesus paid for my sins", he does not mean that he no longer owes the debt of sin, merely that the creditor and the terms have changed. The entire debt still remains to be paid!	When a Christian says "Jesus paid for my sins", he means that his entire payment for all his sins has been made, no more debt remains, no further payment is due or could even be made.
Repentance	"It is a long road spiked with thorns and briars and pitfalls and problems" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness quoted in Gospel Principles, page 123. The Mormon definition includes: 1) sorrow for your sins. 2) abandoning [never again committing] each and every sin. 3) confessing each sin. 4) restitution, as far as it is possible, for every sin ever committed. 5) freely forgive anyone who ever sinned against you. 6) obedience to all of God's other commands [in essence - perfection]. 7) perform works to make up for the sin. 8) there can be no repentance without punishment. 9) you will not even desire to commit the sin again! Points 1-7 referenced in Gospel Principles, pages 124-125. Point 8 referenced in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 224. Point 9 referenced in Missionary Discussions, page 2-14 / Study Guide 2, page 3. From *Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith:* True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light. Not only so, but to make restitution, so far as it is possible, for all the wrongs we have done, to pay our debts, and restore to God and man their rights - that which is due to them from us.	Literally, a change of mind. A turning of one's heart from trust in yourself and your works to trust in Jesus and his work for you. Such a change of heart will result in sorrow for one's sins and a humble attitude of following God's will.
Redemption	Synonymous with atonement.	Christ bought all mankind back (redeemed) from the wages of our sin. See atonement.
Salvation	(1) For most Mormons this is equivalent to physical resurrection, the reuniting of body and soul on Judgment Day. This is the only free gift in Mormonism. This is why many can say they believe they are saved by Jesus alone. They mean that they believe they don't have to do anything to be resurrected. However, this salvation does not grant eternal life (exaltation). That is based on their successful completion of their plan of salvation. Mormonism states that if one makes no effort and is an unbeliever he / she will still be resurrected and assigned a place in the lowest kingdom. Therefore, a Mormon can say that a person is granted heaven solely on Jesus' atoning work. And that person need not even believe in Jesus to attain it. (2) Sometimes 'salvation' is used as a synonym for exaltation, as in "Plan of Salvation" (actually the plan of exaltation).	The free gift of eternal life in heaven with God given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.
Sanctification	A term not commonly used in Mormonism. They use it to refer to a state of saintliness which is obtained as people purify themselves by overcoming sin.	(1) Believers in Jesus' saving work are considered saints by God (sanctified). This refers to our status as citizens of heaven, while living on earth. (2) While on earth, the continuing work of the Holy Spirit resulting in the strengthening of our faith and becoming increasingly Christ-like (holy). (3) The final change that occurs on Judgment Day where believers are forever separated from their sinful nature and are thereby made holy.
Sin	A word not commonly used by Mormons since Mormonism has a weak view of sin. "But all of us are guilty of sin to some degree" (Gospel Principles, p. 117). Instead of talking about sin, they use words such as bad habits, infractions, mistakes, and poor judgments.	Any violation of God's commands, whether in thought, word, or deed. Includes any and all trespass, transgression, iniquity, wickedness, etc. Includes sins of omission (not doing what we are commanded) as well as commission (doing what we are commanded not to do).
Plan of Salvation	In general, Mormonism. Specifically, an intricate plan outlining a process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation). Steps in this process include becoming perfect, temple endowment, and celestial marriage. All the laws and ordinances of Mormonism embody the plan.	God's plan of sacrificing his perfect son so that all who believe in him are saved (given eternal life). John 3:14-17: Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, ¹⁵that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. ¹⁶"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ¹⁷For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

you are in no position to tell me or broncobilly what reality is, you are not God.

Why does your Organization® send out so many missionaries; trying to tell folks what IT'S 'reality' is then?

Your Organization® is not GOD, either.

...however, we only worship the god of Abraham, and of Issac and of Jacob, he is our God.

Delf, there's FOUR Book of Mormon verses that explicitly talk about worshipping Jesus. (Do I need to trot them out for you?) That doesn't include the many verses in the Bible that explicitly discusses the same thing.

Bruce R. McConkie, LDS apostle, recognized this as well: “The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship...No one can worship the Father without worshipping the Son… It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son.” (McConkie, MD, p. 848)

So, again, how many "gods" do you worship?

That is a logical conclusion, but it is not "doctrine". The conclusion is based on the promise in the bible that we can become heirs to the kingdom then it is logical that God may have inherited the kingdome the same way, but it's just a theory.

So do Lorenzo Snow couplet "theories" galore get published (along with Smith 1844 funeral sermons), commonly get placed in all the major basic theology publications of the LDS church? BYU prof Stephen Robinson, in his book, HOW WIDE THE DIVIDE, conceded this was official LDS doctrine...just not canonized.

That's because, the Bible says so... Romans 8:16-17. if you are an heir to the kingdom of God...

So an "heir" = godhood, eh? Then, since God created Hell and since He is leaving this piece of "real estate" to his "heirs", Lucifer & his demons (& Hitler & many others)...I guess Lucifer, demons, Hitler, etc. also are "gods" according to your definition of "heir," eh?