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Revelation, Speculation, and Science
AiG ^ | February 18, 2009 | Dr. Greg Bahnsen

Posted on 02/18/2009 9:17:16 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

Revelation, Speculation, and Science

by Dr. Greg Bahnsen

February 18, 2009

It is one of those embarrassing historical ironies that modern science could not have arisen except in the atmosphere of a Christian world-and-life view. Nevertheless, the scientific community today persists in playing the prodigal by assuming an antagonistic stance against the Christianity of divine revelation. Hypnotized by Darwin’s evolutionary scheme and enchanted with the products of scientific technology, modern man has granted science a secularized godship and bows before it in fetish idolatry.

The pitting of science against revelation is certainly odd. For, a certain state of affairs is needed for the scientific endeavor to be meaningful or fruitful. The scientist must believe that the state of affairs is conducive to science, or he would not venture into the scientific enterprise. He must believe that there is a world of things and processes that can be known and that he himself sustains a relationship to this world that allows him to know these objects and events. But then, what reason can the scientist give for his belief that the state of affairs is actually conducive to science? Why is the world such as it is and not otherwise?

The Predicament for Science...

(Excerpt) Read more at answersingenesis.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; creationjunkscience; evolution; intelligentdesign; philosophy; spam; spamspamspamspam
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To: DallasMike
"For what it's worth, I am a conservative, committed Christian who believes the entire Bible."

Except for the 100 + places where it says that evolution didn't happen, and the places where the Lord himself confirms the six day creation. Other than that, and most of the Bible, you're good to go.

51 posted on 02/18/2009 6:44:14 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: js1138

Terry Cook has a collection of mammoth femurs that are fully mineral, along with tusks, and petrified wood, all from the same excavation in the former Parachini Ranch, along Hillcrest Avenue in Antioch.


52 posted on 02/18/2009 6:50:45 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: Buck W.
"It’s even more interesting that there seems to be a belief that mineralization can occur over the span of just a few years"

The "Limestone Cowboy" exhibit of a cowboy boot manufactured in 1949 or 1950, filled with a fully fossilized foot and lower leg, has been viewed by close to 100,000 visitors, and examined by paleontologists and chemists. Do you attempt to hand wave that also?

53 posted on 02/18/2009 6:57:33 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: metmom

Looks like you hit a nerve with this one.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen them hijack a thread so fast in my years on FR.

Nope, no nerve hit. Just a lot of Freepers who are tired of the endless spam from certain people promoting really, really bad pseudo-scientific articles that make Christians look like fools.

54 posted on 02/18/2009 6:59:59 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: DallasMike; js1138; steve-b
"Thanks, I like that quote. It can never be repeated enough on threads like these."

Yes, because Augustine was directly refering to "old Earthers" when he penned that. He detested their willful ignorance.

55 posted on 02/18/2009 7:03:46 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: editor-surveyor

No, he wasn’t. He was referring to those who upheld the steady-state model of the uncreated universe, which denied the necessity of a Creator.


56 posted on 02/18/2009 7:11:33 PM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: editor-surveyor; Buck W.
The "Limestone Cowboy" exhibit of a cowboy boot manufactured in 1949 or 1950, filled with a fully fossilized foot and lower leg, has been viewed by close to 100,000 visitors, and examined by paleontologists and chemists. Do you attempt to hand wave that also?

Um, I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the Limestone Cowboy bandwagon. It is lame at best and another Young-Earth Creationist dirty trick at worst.. Look at the picture -- do they look like human bones? It's obvious from looking at them that they're not even fossilized.

I live less than 90 minutes from the dinosaur tracks at Glen Rose and I saw the boot 10 years or so ago. I was unimpressed. The "creationist museum" there is a joke. I don't know if they even still exhibit the boot.


57 posted on 02/18/2009 7:15:24 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: DallasMike; metmom
" Just a lot of Freepers who are tired of the endless spam from certain people promoting really, really bad pseudo-scientific articles that make Christians look like fools."

Yes, we are tired of you and your dishonest ilk. Attempting to twist the words of Augustine 180 degrees in reverse shows your character in limelight, but evolution doesn't even rise to the level of psuedo-science; its pure religion.

58 posted on 02/18/2009 7:18:06 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: editor-surveyor
Terry Cook has a collection of mammoth femurs that are fully mineral, along with tusks, and petrified wood, all from the same excavation in the former Parachini Ranch, along Hillcrest Avenue in Antioch.

Now all you need is a cache of fully intact, unmineralized dinosaur bones, and perhaps some unmineralized trilobites, and you'll have something.

Rapid mineralization isn't the problem. It's the total pattern.

59 posted on 02/18/2009 7:19:06 PM PST by js1138
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To: DallasMike

I’ve been to the Glen Rose “museum” as well—”side show” is a better description of the place.


60 posted on 02/18/2009 7:20:22 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: DallasMike

We’re really tired of your lies and distortion here, but your cliam of being a Christian turns them to blasphemy.

Posting links to sites that are known for the production of propaganda really ices your cake.


61 posted on 02/18/2009 7:22:49 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: js1138

What a weather vane you are!

Contradict yourself as often as you like.


62 posted on 02/18/2009 7:24:16 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: DallasMike

“Um, I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the Limestone Cowboy bandwagon...”

Yet another YEC Piltdown Man!


63 posted on 02/18/2009 7:25:54 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Philo-Junius; DallasMike; js1138; steve-b
No, he wasn’t. He was referring to those who upheld the steady-state model of the uncreated universe, which denied the necessity of a Creator.
Thanks for setting the record straight. Augustine seems to have held to the notion of a 6,000 year-old in some of his writings, yet in City of God calls the days of creation difficult or perhaps impossible to conceive:
"But simultaneously with time the world was made, if in the world's creation change and motion were created, as seems evident from the order of the first six or seven days. For in these days the morning and evening are counted, until, on the sixth day, all things which God then made were finished, and on the seventh the rest of God was mysteriously and sublimely signalized. What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!" (City of God, Book 11: Chapt. 6).

Regardless of his views, we do not that Augustine did not suffer fools lightly and was not afraid of God's revelation through his creation.


64 posted on 02/18/2009 7:28:45 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: Buck W.; DallasMike
"Yet another YEC Piltdown Man!"

Ahh... as you ding into the bag of tricks of your fellow deceivers to offer a false allusion.

If we could harness your spin, we could drill deep wells for free.

65 posted on 02/18/2009 7:31:20 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: editor-surveyor
Posting links to sites that are known for the production of propaganda really ices your cake.
I haven't linked to propaganda sites like Answers in Genesis.

Blasphemy is a pretty strong term. As I said before, if you were capable of discussing this article on its intellectual merits, you would.


66 posted on 02/18/2009 7:32:24 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: editor-surveyor
Ahh... as you ding into the bag of tricks of your fellow deceivers to offer a false allusion.
Speaking of deceivers, do you remember the human tracks supposedly found near Glen Rose, Texas? They don't even look human, but Young Earth Creationists jumped on them like a duck on a June bug as proof for a young earth.

I'm so old that the first time we sent to see the dinosaur tracks, an old farmer opened a fence in a barbed wire gate to let us in and charged us about 4 bucks. The place has certainly changed since the mid- to late-sixties.


67 posted on 02/18/2009 7:53:53 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: tpanther

Thanks for the ping!


68 posted on 02/18/2009 8:24:41 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: metmom

Thanks for the ping!


69 posted on 02/18/2009 8:26:40 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: GodGunsGuts
'Tis a sad but familiar tale. The greedy and ambitious son who seeks to murder the father so he may all the sooner possess the father's wealth and throne.
70 posted on 02/18/2009 8:59:56 PM PST by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS

Excellent observation.


71 posted on 02/18/2009 9:15:38 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts; metmom; tpanther; valkyry1; editor-surveyor

If there was any question about certain people organizing disruptive activities, there certainly isn’t now.


72 posted on 02/18/2009 10:48:50 PM PST by Fichori (To everyone who gave Zero his own Hawaiian-good-luck-salute and donated to the FReepathon, THANKYOU!)
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To: Fichori

That’s alright- their disruptions just show a desperation on their part to Deny God and to try to justify it by shouting loud enough that they can’t hear that still small voice- let em shout- it’s al l they’ve got- their posts speak volumes, and peopel iwll see for themselves how the only hting these oflks have to ‘defend’ their denials, is offensive behaviour


73 posted on 02/18/2009 10:59:11 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: mrjesse

Organized disruption between 2-3+ DC’ers starts around post 4.


74 posted on 02/18/2009 11:48:51 PM PST by Fichori (To everyone who gave Zero his own Hawaiian-good-luck-salute and donated to the FReepathon, THANKYOU!)
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To: editor-surveyor

I havent contradicted myself.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2188397/posts?page=22#22

Mineralization can be rapid. What’s mysterious is that there are no unmineralized dino bones, even though they are supposedly only a few thousand years old.

There are lots of unmineralized mammoth bones.


75 posted on 02/19/2009 4:10:43 AM PST by js1138
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To: GodGunsGuts
Although at times Richard Dawkins has applauded, and appealed to, Christian leaders for their opposition to creationist beliefs, elsewhere he has ridiculed them for believing in evolution.

That's what T.H. Huxley used to do a hundred years ago. If a Christain agreed with evolution, he would blast them for not believing in Genesis and accuse them of hypocrisy, cherry-picking, etc. If they did not believe in evolution, he would ridicule them for being 6-day creationists. Just like the evolutionists on FR do, by the way.

Huxley's son Leonard Huxley was an officer of Rationalist Press Association, which is dedicated to destroying Christianity. Leonard Huxley's son Julian was a major architect of the modern "Culture of Death". Julian Huxley was a friend of the Dawkins family.

76 posted on 02/19/2009 5:22:54 AM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Darwinism!)
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To: js1138; editor-surveyor

Don’t expect too much rationality from this guy. He still hasn’t provided a single rational explanation to support his contention that the continents moved into their current positions in a few months during ‘the flood’.


77 posted on 02/19/2009 5:27:29 AM PST by Natufian (The mesolithic wasn't so bad, was it?)
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To: Natufian

I wasn’t writing for his benefit. He thinks coffee enemas are an effective treatment for cancer.


78 posted on 02/19/2009 5:36:28 AM PST by js1138
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To: editor-surveyor

Nope. He was referring to people who refused to study the facts and educate themselves. Given the state of the evidence now, that would be the young-earth pseudoscience crowd.


79 posted on 02/19/2009 6:05:13 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: js1138
He thinks coffee enemas are an effective treatment for cancer.

Well, if people with brains in their heads drink coffee through their mouths....

80 posted on 02/19/2009 6:06:22 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: editor-surveyor
We're really tired of your lies and distortion here, but your cliam of being a Christian turns them to blasphemy.

projection (pr& JEK sh&n): the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself

81 posted on 02/19/2009 6:08:43 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: js1138

Hmmmm, okay, these vists to the margin just get wierder and wierder.


82 posted on 02/19/2009 6:26:54 AM PST by Natufian (The mesolithic wasn't so bad, was it?)
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To: steve-b

Maybe he was thinking of one of you that had no idea where his head was, (while the rest of us have a really good idea...)

yes a coffee enema would work just fine in his case.


83 posted on 02/19/2009 6:31:42 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: editor-surveyor; DallasMike
The "Limestone Cowboy" exhibit of a cowboy boot manufactured in 1949 or 1950, filled with a fully fossilized foot and lower leg, has been viewed by close to 100,000 visitors, and examined by paleontologists and chemists. Do you attempt to hand wave that also?

Really? The very same "Limestone Cowboy" exhibit that Carl Baugh has removed from his dubious "museum?" The one that I can no longer find evidence of on the very museum website in which you cite? A museum which is full of fakes and nonsense as it is, which leads me to believe that the fake bones in plaster of Paris were even too silly for him to display.

You suggested that scientists would "hand-wave" away your Limestone Cowboy "evidence" but yet, the main proponent of it has made it disappear himself. Strange, no?

Stranger yet is that you continue to prop up this foolishness when clowns like "Dr" Baugh almost seem to revel in their fakery. Take, for instance, his own bio posted on his own site.

While it's funny enough that he lists is high school diploma, please also note that his Doctorate is in Theology (hardly makes him an expert on fossilization!) But wait, you scream, he has a Masters in Archaeology! Yeah. Right. From good ol' Pacific Collge of Graduate Studies. A creationist favorite to be sure. Why?

Because it's a FAKE COLLEGE and a DIPLOMA MILL, which has been well documented. (Of course, it must be noted that Carl Baugh was the president of this diploma mill in the late 80's, right when he received his first entirely phony doctorate in Philosophy.)

The university had no accreditation and offered doctorates for a lump sum payment. The fees ranged up to 2,500-3,000 USD for a Doctor of Theological Studies degree. The school has an "administrative office," but no campus, so no classes are held on site. There are no minimum educational requirements to apply other than two references, one academic and one church related.

I wonder, e-s, does this bother you in the least? Or will you "hand wave" this away too?
84 posted on 02/19/2009 7:16:00 AM PST by whattajoke (.)
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To: Fichori

[[Organized disruption between 2-3+ DC’ers starts around post 4.]

Perhaps we should simply start reporting them IF that’s all they are goign to do- they add absolutely NOTHING to the threads.


85 posted on 02/19/2009 8:34:08 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Nevertheless, the scientific community today persists in playing the prodigal by assuming an antagonistic stance against the Christianity of divine revelation.

Roses are red to symbolize the suffering of Christ on the cross.

86 posted on 02/19/2009 8:41:13 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: whattajoke

First, I didn’t cite any website.

Second, all of the charges you make are childish, and typical of the evo charletans that post here. I cannot recall a single instance of an honest person posting here in support of evolution. It goes with the insanity that drives all of them.


87 posted on 02/19/2009 5:04:53 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: editor-surveyor; DallasMike
First, I didn’t cite any website.

You are despicable. You reference some silly fake "evidence" with authority, now you shrink away.

Second, all of the charges you make are childish, and typical of the evo charletans that post here. I cannot recall a single instance of an honest person posting here in support of evolution. It goes with the insanity that drives all of them.

Huh? The dude you placed trust in is clearly a liar and a charlatan, trumping up clearly fake degrees. I'm sorry to piss you off (not really), but now you're acting like a 4 year old. Admit it, even wackadoo creationists like Carl Baugh no longer believe in the Limestone Cowboy. And now you look like a fool.
88 posted on 02/19/2009 5:18:08 PM PST by whattajoke (.)
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To: whattajoke

Piss me off?

You’re a joke, an uncontrollable guffaw, and a typical one trick pony here.


89 posted on 02/19/2009 5:32:03 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: editor-surveyor

You can’t do it can you? You can’t admit that Carl Baugh is a fraud and that the Limestone Cowboy is no longer displayed at his museum; a tacit admission that it’s bs.

You are incapable of it. You are pathological.


90 posted on 02/19/2009 5:34:46 PM PST by whattajoke (.)
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To: js1138
"I wasn’t writing for his benefit. He thinks coffee enemas are an effective treatment for cancer."

Please, please, please tell me you have a link to this. That would be simply magnificent.

91 posted on 02/19/2009 6:05:35 PM PST by oldmanreedy
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To: oldmanreedy

For cancer, Can’t find it. Found these, however.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818914/posts?page=86#86
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1675498/posts?page=184#184
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1940463/posts?page=31#31
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2148472/reply?c=37
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2148472/posts?page=31#31
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1420749/posts?page=48#48
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2162156/posts?page=8#8
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2162156/posts?page=13#13
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2162156/posts?page=23#23
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2162156/posts?page=34#34
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/560837/posts?page=4#4
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1403566/posts?page=34#34
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1951176/posts?page=14#14
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1975542/posts?page=44#44
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1562305/posts?page=46#46


92 posted on 02/19/2009 7:11:30 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
From your first link:

"You’re blaming the wrong cause. You should have first opened your gallbladder first, and then done a series of coffee enemas. You were not digesting the fats properly, and that can only mean a plugged up liver and gallbladder. (unless you are old enough to be lacking in stomach acid)"
-editor-surveyor

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is incredible. Thank you so very much for posting these links.

93 posted on 02/20/2009 1:51:19 PM PST by oldmanreedy
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To: oldmanreedy

To be completely honest I wasn’t able to find the editor-surveyor post recommending coffee enemas for cancer.

However, if you google coffee enemas and cancer you will find quite a lot. Wikipedia has a relatively neutral article on the subject. There has been an attempt by a qualified MD to test this with terminal cancer patients, but so far he hasn’t found enough volunteers.

I could deal with terminal patients trying anything, and if the test is supervised, so much the better. There is some other weird stuff here, as you have noticed.


94 posted on 02/20/2009 1:58:52 PM PST by js1138
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