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Victor Davis Hanson: A Constantinople Initiative?
NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE ^ | August 16, 2010 | Victor Davis Hanson

Posted on 08/16/2010 10:01:15 PM PDT by neverdem

One wonders about the symbolism of the Cordoba Initiative. Was Cordoba selected because in a multicultural context it represents a blending of harmonious cultures? If so, I’m not sure history quite supports such a usage.

The city was founded by Romans and remained Western in some sense until conquered by Muslim invaders in 711, when it soon became a capital of what Muslims called al-Andalus, the Islamic foothold in southern Europe, the recurrence of which is so nostalgically evoked by bin Laden and Co. The president’s Cairo speech cited Cordoba as a beacon of tolerance during the Spanish Inquisition (“Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance: We see it in the history of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition”), but that was mostly therapeutic myth-making: Cordoba had been captured in the first wave of the Reconquisita in 1236, and most of its Muslim population had fled, been converted, or forced out more than two-and-a-half centuries before the Inquisition even began.

But even before then, the once-cosmopolitan Cordoba — as handed down from the overtly homosexual and enlightened Al-Hakam II — was already in decline due to serial assassinations, court coups, and increasing Islamic intolerance for freedom of thought and expression outside the boundaries of the Koran.

The evocation of Cordoba may refer to the cultural achievements of late tenth-century Islam, but the city’s full history also recalls Islam’s efforts to conquer southern Europe and reminds us that, so often in the past, innate Muslim genius was stifled by reactionary clerics worried about human claims of secular achievement.

If a Muslim city inside Europe is what the Initiative needs for symbolic purposes, why not the “Constantinople Initiative”? Perhaps the proponents of the new Islamic center could make the argument that 1453, with its symbolic minarets on Hagia Sophia, marks the sort of religious ecumenism that we should again strive for. To go further, why look for iconic Islamic cities in formerly European territory at all, when a “Dubai Initiative”or a “Baghdad Initiative” might serve as a better and more contemporary model of East-West cultural and commercial cross-fertilization, or our common efforts at promoting democracy?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: cordoba; cordobainitiative; groundzero; groundzeromosque; vdh; victordavishanson

1 posted on 08/16/2010 10:01:16 PM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem
Kill em all..
2 posted on 08/16/2010 10:06:23 PM PDT by GSP.FAN (Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.)
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To: neverdem

When reality doesn’t fit the liberal meme they just make stuff up...it’s also why liberals are often compared to children intellectually.


3 posted on 08/16/2010 10:14:15 PM PDT by highlander_UW (Education is too important to abdicate control of it to the government)
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To: neverdem

The Turks want to bring back the Ottoman Empire. Check history.


4 posted on 08/16/2010 10:19:08 PM PDT by pankot
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To: neverdem

If you visit Cordoba, you will get to see the Mosque built on the ruins of a cathedral, the ultimate symbol of Muslim dominance over Christianity.

The moment I heard this NYC project was named the Cordoba Initiative, I knew it was a middle finger to the people of the United States by muslim girly-men.


5 posted on 08/16/2010 10:26:38 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: neverdem

Oh, why do muslims hate homosexuals so much?

Because even the most gay man is still more of a man the most masculine muslim.


6 posted on 08/16/2010 10:28:10 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: pankot

The Greeks ought to forget that Euro nonsense and bring back Byzantium;)


7 posted on 08/16/2010 10:38:48 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: Erik Latranyi
Talk to anyone that has been in the sandbox. Homosexuality is rampant. "Women are for babies, men are for pleasure".

islam is a homicidal, suicidal, homosexual death cult.

OOPS! Did I say that out loud?

8 posted on 08/16/2010 11:22:03 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: neverdem

Any time someone attempts to flesh out dreams of islamic conquests of old with tales of equality and such, the only things coming to my mind are the definition of the word dhimmi, and the horrible jizya and code, forcing people to constantly live as second class citizens. Any political ideology that uses such tactics upon a portion of those living under it must not ever stand. Not ever. No matter what it’s called, that is EVIL.


9 posted on 08/17/2010 2:45:25 AM PDT by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Good one!!!


10 posted on 08/17/2010 4:12:19 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: Erik Latranyi

Having spent a few years in the middle east observing the locals, I believe it is a self hate type of thing.


11 posted on 08/17/2010 6:37:15 AM PDT by jospehm20
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To: highlander_UW
it’s also why liberals are often compared to children intellectually.

And emotionally.

12 posted on 08/17/2010 6:53:08 AM PDT by VRW Conspirator ( Where is Hugh Series?)
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To: VRW Conspirator
it’s also why liberals are often compared to children intellectually. And emotionally.

Indeed!

13 posted on 08/17/2010 7:42:37 AM PDT by highlander_UW (Education is too important to abdicate control of it to the government)
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To: neverdem

When you see a minaret where a church steeple used to be, it’s too late.


14 posted on 08/17/2010 8:46:36 AM PDT by gitmogrunt
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To: neverdem; narses; cpforlife.org; redgolum; highlander_UW; GSP.FAN

What is even sadder is, thanks to the NEA, secular humanists, and liberals in the educational system, most Americans would not even know what the significance of "Constantinople" was, what Hagia Sophia was, or the general trends of civilization in Western history from the 7th century to 1453 A.D.

With liberalism, the naked public square becomes not just a confusion about values, first principles, religion, and cultural identity, but through Separation of Church and State and the kowtowing, bowing, appeasement, anti-Americanism, anti-Christianity, and silliness of this White House, almost a suicide pact. They would be the first ones to ban a Christmas Nativity display in Manhattan.
"John Gibson, call your office..."


Keith was off his medicine again on this on The Countdown, even getting the history of Spain and medieval Europe ass backwards - with the Christians as the aggressors, the usual spin about freedom of religion (denied by the party in question in all other matters), and, presumably, a confidence that all cultures and values are equal, with Western Christianity deserving no prominence or praise from liberals, as he sneered at the churches in Manhattan near Ground Zero. The naked public square has not only taken away moral values, but left them moronized by lack of education on the history of the struggle between civilization and barbarism. Or on any sense of what a truly post-Christian, post-American world would be like on a day-to-day basis.

No liberal yells about "freedom of religion" when a zoning board denies a building permit to a Christian congregation or when a group of secular humanist cranks with genital issues stage a public riot against a Christmas Nativity display. They shift to "free speech" on those days. Some issues, it seems, are more equal than others.

15 posted on 08/17/2010 8:54:46 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: gitmogrunt
Like this? This is the single most amazing Christian church I have ever seen. Built a mere three centuries after the death of Christ.


16 posted on 08/17/2010 9:01:44 AM PDT by DryFly
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To: DryFly

A most Majestic Church, thanks for posting the photo.


17 posted on 08/17/2010 9:24:55 AM PDT by gitmogrunt
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To: neverdem
I remember when Clinton was president, and the Balkans erupted. One commentator indicated that part of what people there were trying to achieve was essentially "payback for the Battle of Kosovo in 1389."

Someone said, "1389?? Six hundred years ago??"
And the pundit said, "These people have long memories. They don't forget what they've won and they don't forget what they've lost. Their view of history is just not the same as ours."

18 posted on 08/17/2010 11:00:36 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Frank_2001

Opa! Nai!


19 posted on 08/17/2010 5:01:29 PM PDT by pankot
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To: StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 21twelve; 240B; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; 31R1O; 3AngelaD; ..

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Thanks neverdem.
[Cordoba] was founded by Romans and remained Western in some sense until conquered by Muslim invaders in 711, when it soon became a capital of what Muslims called al-Andalus, the Islamic foothold in southern Europe... The president's Cairo speech cited Cordoba... ("Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance: We see it in the history of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition"), but that was mostly therapeutic myth-making: Cordoba had been captured in the first wave of the Reconquisita in 1236, and most of its Muslim population had fled, been converted, or forced out more than two-and-a-half centuries before the Inquisition even began. But even before then, the once-cosmopolitan Cordoba -- as handed down from the overtly homosexual and enlightened Al-Hakam II -- was already in decline due to serial assassinations, court coups, and increasing Islamic intolerance for freedom of thought and expression outside the boundaries of the Koran.
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20 posted on 08/19/2010 4:09:52 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: SunkenCiv

I will be very happy when one day those minarets are torn down and the Hagia Sophia is once again a Christian church.


21 posted on 08/19/2010 4:27:44 PM PDT by Mmogamer (I refudiate the lamestream media, leftists and their prevaricutions.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

I have read someplace that part of the issue with long islamic memory for historical events comes from the nature of the Arabic language itself, because Arabic has no ~tenses~. There’s no past tense... no future tense... everything is written about in what amounts to the present tense.

An illuminating little factoid, that.


22 posted on 08/19/2010 4:55:34 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: SunkenCiv
I think that there should be an outcry from the Al-Hakam II Brigades regarding the new Greenwich Village mosque ...

It certainly has a strong historical precedent!

23 posted on 08/19/2010 5:07:08 PM PDT by texas booster (Join FreeRepublic's Folding@Home team (Team # 36120) Cure Alzheimer's!)
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To: neverdem

Some of Pope Urban II speeches should be required reading. We really need to take back Constantinople, which is the birthplace of Christianity as a united and stuctured religion (and I am Catholic, not Orthodox). Having that city in Muslim hands is a spit in the face, much worse than the ground zero mosque. If Westerners knew their history, we would not tolerate muslim control of Constantinople and the way the few Orthodox that remain their are treated.


24 posted on 08/20/2010 6:29:49 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: wolfman23601
We really need to take back Constantinople....

Wow.... Wolfman's crusade to invade Turkey. How remarkably silly.

25 posted on 08/20/2010 6:34:56 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb

Not as remarkably silly as accepting the city as a part of Turkey.


26 posted on 08/20/2010 6:43:02 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: wolfman23601

Or even sillier regarding Manhattan as part of the United States, rather than belonging to Native American tribes. Istanbul became part of Turkey the year after Columbus first sailed the oceans blue, and a century and a half before New Amsterdam was settled.


27 posted on 08/20/2010 8:31:19 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Ramius

Yes, quite illuminating indeed. Thanks for sharing.


28 posted on 08/20/2010 8:40:06 AM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: neverdem

Interesting. I didn’t know that much of Cordoba’s “tolerant” reputation was largely a myth. VDH is indispensible.


29 posted on 08/20/2010 9:57:27 AM PDT by DesScorp
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