Posted on 08/19/2010 1:19:28 PM PDT by TheConservativeCitizen
Documentary educational television would have us believe that the single greatest scientific achievement of the past millennium was Darwin’s theory of evolution. Many religious fundamentalists have serious issues with this assertion. Many legitimate scientists with both secular and religious perspectives do as well. Darwin himself recognized serious shortcomings with evolution. A new sort of “scientist,” the evolutionary biologist, has come on the scene. These folks are specifically dedicated to supporting and proving a theory. Previously science did not work that way. Scientists used to look for evidence of disproof, only accepting theories that prove unassailable.
On the other side we have unscientific religious fundamentalists. These folks are willing to describe their search for proof of their scriptures as basic science. They study scripture and seek evidence to support what it says.
Both sides’ methods are troublingly reminiscent of case law: by carefully selecting your precedents or evidence one can prove anything. Mathematicians and philosophers long ago concluded that “proving” a general hypotheses about the real world is a logical impossibility. That is, no one can find every possible exception to any assertion about the real world.
(Excerpt) Read more at constitutionclub.org ...
And did the overwhelming majority of American communities seek out the extreme liberals and ask them to push their extreme liberalism into each community school?
When is the last time you ever heard a conservative say they wanted to stop anyone from having their own private school? Did you write that just for filler, to pretend its just kind of a balance thing? That is a red herring if I ever heard one.
The liberals are doing it right now. Isn't that what you're complaining about? Including the "two mommies" books in grade school is quite clearly an effort to use the public school system to teach their morality to kids.
And did the overwhelming majority of American communities seek out the extreme liberals and ask them to push their extreme liberalism into each community school?
It doesn't matter who the majority is. It matters who's running the schools.
I'm lucky. I live in a fairly conservative area, so the education appears to only be slightly left-slanted. Remember that big televised Obama propaganda speech for school kids last year? Obviously, hoping the school wouldn't show it at all was wishful thinking. But school policy from the outset, without the need for parent protests, was that any kid can opt-out with no repercussion. My daughter came home with the opt-out slip and flat-out told me, with no prodding from me, that she wanted out. I was so proud of her!
When is the last time you ever heard a conservative say they wanted to stop anyone from having their own private school?
That was the Supreme Court case I cited. Losing that probably broke the spirit of the conservative authoritarians on this subject, leaving the liberal authoritarians to later come in and fill the power vacuum. That was a really strange case. The conservative authoritarians didn't lose to liberals, but a Catholic school and a conservative military academy.
There's social conservatism and small-government conservatism. The two are mutually exclusive when it comes to social conservatives wanting to spread conservative values by force of government. At that point they become the big-government liberals, just on the other side of the social coin.
Yes, I am glad you could figure that one out. My question to you was to make sure you knew the liberals are doing it right now as you worry about conservatives wanting their children to assume a Creator, just like the founding fathers (those right wing extremists).
What kind of a conservative are you? I assume you will say you are a small government one.
How can you call yourself a small governement conservative when you approve of the biggest, most influencial government indoctrination system run by extreme liberals whose goal is to use the public schools to undermine the values that parents teach their own children. Your daughter may opt out, but liberals know when they created their default 'new morality', new world view' and put it in as the default, most students will not opt out, thus the indoctrination is fixed. Is that okay with you?
You have not yet realized that your daughter will grow up into a world where extreme liberals have OPTED most other people's children IN?
It doesn't matter who the majority is. It matters who's running the schools.
Exactly my point. So why have the majority of people not had their views taught in their own schools instead of this leftist minority view. And is that okay with you?
If we are going to have indoctrination anyway, allowing the extremists of the minority view to have their views given a government stamp while making the majority pay for it is the worst choice of all.
Public school is BIG GOVERNMENT indoctrination of a captive audience of other people's children by a minority group of extremists. And that doesn't bother you quite enough yet? What kind of conservative did you say you were?
I suggest that the public schools are no place to teach morality.
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It is impossible to have a morally neutral school. If you don’t believe that please describe one to us and I will have great fun tearing your post to shreds.
If there were complete separation of school and state, how would the government be involved in any way in the indoctrination of children?
All the nation's children would attend **private** schools, or educational settings chosen by the parent.
As for vouchers, tax credits, and charters, I see these as a means to build the private infrastructure needed for complete privatization.
The government has deliberately created a price-fixed cartel system of schools that is giving its service away for tuition-free. That creates a horrific business climate for the formation of private schools, and as a result there are many counties in the U.S. that have NO private schools. They can't compete against a price-fixed cartel that is tuition-free. Therefore...tax credits, vouchers, and charters can be a means to move to complete privatization.
The goal of vouchers, tax credits, and charters should be creating a private infrastructure and then moving to having parents and private charities pick up the full cost of tuition.
By the way...If individuals were permitted
I could not have said it as well. Excellent.
The solution to every point you made it to get government out of the education business.
Why would you or evolutionist care what creationists taught their children about evolution if there were complete separation of school and state?
Tsk! tsk! You **ASSumed that I was a creationist. I am not. I taught evolution to my children within the framework of our religious worldview.
No, you're mistaking "evolutionists" with communists. The two groups are not the same. All the evolutionists I know of just want to see science taught in science classes. If you want to establish a compulsory "comparative religion" class and teach "creation science" and "intelligent design" there, I'm fine with that. But not in biology class.
If there is complete separation of school and state, the government can't compel any school to either teach or not teach evolution because they would own and run **NO** schools! Your kids would go to schools that support your educational and religious philosophy. Creationist and/or IDer would send their kids to schools that supports their worldview.
Complete baloney. It isn't "evolutionists" pushing to have "intelligent design" taught as science...it is biblical literalist creationists.
Again the solution is complete separation of school and state. Your kids would go to school chosen by you that best support your worldview toward the teaching of science. Creationists and IDers would create or find schools that would support their worldview.
I support vouchers, charters, and tax credits provided that they are a means to building a private school infrastructure, and they are gradually decreased so that eventually parents, themselves, and charities take on the full cost of educating our nation's children. In my state it would mean 60% cut in our state budget and a 60% cut in our county taxes!
We're not talking "all education", we're talking about science, specifically biology. Like it or not, in biology, evolution is THE scientific explanation.
**ALL** education can only be done in one of two ways: in a godless manner or a God-center one. **Neither** is religiously neutral in consequences or content. The school must choose one worldview or the other: godless or God-centered.
With godless or God-centered, yes, they likely share the vast bulk of information in common, the God-centered approach, though, would include some philosophic teachings from the leaders of the child's ( or young adult's) religious worldview.
For instance, I attended Catholic parochial schools, 1st through 10th grade and university. I was schooled in government school for 11th and 12th grade and graduate school for my profession. There is a HUGE HUGE HUGE deference between the philosophic approach between a religiously based education and a godless one.
In my Catholic education, at appropriate times, we were reminded that science and math reflected the glory of God's creation. Studying these subjects gave us a glimpse into the mind of God. It was our **duty** to learn as much about God's creation as possible and we were to use our knowledge to bless others. As scientists were introduced, we were given some instruction on how their religious outlook ( usually Christian) influenced their lives and work.
The **name** of our science building on my Catholic university was MENDEL hall!.. And... there was an enormous mosaic of this monk,Gregor, and other Catholic religious symbols, covering an entire wall in the front lobby. Imagine that! Can you imagine what God-centered lesson this Catholic university was trying to teach about science with that name and mosaic?
Again...It is impossible to have a religiously neutral education. That includes science education as well.
But...Down on the Animal Farm, government bureaucrats and the toady politicians in the NEA’s pocket live in the farmer's house. Private CEOs doing the same thing get to live in prison.
One thing gives me encouragement. I am seeing more and more in editorials the idea that it is impossible to have a religiously neutral education. Education is either godless or God-centered. Government schools, being utterly godless in their worldview, are establishing a godless worldview in their schools and are NOT, and never have been, religiously neutral.
Big "if" considering the Founders endorsed public schools.
As for vouchers, tax credits, and charters, I see these as a means to build the private infrastructure needed for complete privatization.
I see them as a means for competition. The Founders never envisioned that public schools would have a virtual monopoly in schooling the children, of course they never envisioned much of the power of the government these days. Vouchers can break that lock. Right now the average person sending a child to private school pays twice: through taxes and tuition. Vouchers make it fair.
There will always be somebody there to bitch about something. But we can remove the obvious bias in much of the system. The first order of business is to remove the instruction that is not basic to education. The parts that do try to teach morals go first. It can't be biased if it isn't there. This means no "two mommys" and no Bible verses condemning homosexuality. No "save the planet," no "save our souls." No "utopian paradise," no "socialism sucks." You notice the trend here, in both of the above the liberals do have their point of view in the schools, but the conservatives don't.
Reading, writing, arithmetic, science, the basics. Reading and history are the main places where you have to be careful about bias.
I figured it out long ago. You're just being confrontational.
I assume you will say you are a small government one.
That's me. Socially I'm fairly conservative, but the desire for a less powerful government keeps me from wanting to use the government to force that on others.
How can you call yourself a small governement conservative when you approve of the biggest, most influencial government indoctrination system run by extreme liberals
I didn't say I approved. I approve of the concept of a public education. I don't approve of the ineffective monstrosity of a monopoly it has turned into, not even counting ideological differences.
I do believe in the separation of church and state. "No law" means "No law." That means the government doesn't get into the religion business. That also means the government can't discriminate against private schools just because they're run by religious groups and have religious indoctrination (yes, that's what it is) as part of the curriculum. Bring on the vouchers equally for all schools, bring on the competition. The public schools will reach a point of desperation when facing destruction, and the system will rebel against the liberal unions that almost destroyed it. That, plus decentralization of command, will allow the schools to truly reform and serve their communities.
You have not yet realized that your daughter will grow up into a world where extreme liberals have OPTED most other people's children IN?
She's shown herself to be smart enough to resist. I'll keep encouraging that.
It can’t be biased if it isn’t there.
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Then you are teaching the children to think amorally and godlessly. That isn’t religiously neutral in content or consequences.
Are you a parent? Then teaching morality is your job, not the school's. You can't have it both ways. Don't complain about sex ed, saying that's the parent's responsibility, yet say the schools are supposed to take over the parental responsibility of teaching morals.
Teaching morality in schools cannot not agree with all parents. It could at most agree with small, highly dogmatic groups. For example, I bet the Westboro Baptists all agree on the same exact morals. Expand that into general Christianity and you have thousands of sets of morals at least. There was a deadly riot in this country because the Protestants and Catholics couldn't agree on whose version of Christianity should be taught in schools.
My Catholic mother believed it was the parochial school's job to reinforce ( rather than undermine with godless thinking processes) the values being taught in the home.
The ONLY solution is privatization of all education.
We must begin the process of getting rid of government owned and run schools.
All schools must choose between either godless or God-centered worldviews. Government schools must do so as well.
Let's suppose government schools were God-centered ( as the first modern government schools ( mid-1800s to early 1900s) were:
If a child from a home with a godless worldview ( secular) were forced into a government school with a God-centered worldview, the government would be teaching that child to think, and evaluate his world, in a God-centered manner. In other words the government would be **establishing** a God-centered religious worldview. There is First Amendment conflict there. Obviously!
What happens when a child from a God-centered home is forced to attend our present day godless government schools?
In the same way as in the preceding example,when a child from a God-centered home is forced into government godless schools, he is taught in these godless schools to think and evaluate godlessly. The government is actively ( day by day, minute by minute) destroying and undermining the child's religious belief. In other words the government is **establishing** a godless religious worldview. There is First Amendment conflict there...but...government school defenders REFUSE to accept this.
For the most part, from the posts I've seen here on Free Republic, evolutionists are bullies. They defend government force in education.
I taught evolution in my homeschool, but I do NOT NOT NOT stand with the bullies who wish to force my educational philosophy on unwilling families. I stand with those who wish to get government out of the education business.
Teaching morality in schools cannot not agree with all parents.
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Yes, schools **can** agree with all parents, if they are private schools.
Solution: We must begin the process of privatizing all universal K-12 education and work to either shut down the government schools or convert them to private schools. ( I would also include our state colleges and universities as well.)
Do the above and all these arguments about evolution with disappear.
Maybe severly dogmatic ones. Even Catholics don't agree on everything, and that's a sect with a centrally-issued dogma.
Solution: We must begin the process of privatizing all universal K-12 education
But then you run up against what the Founders intended, and is what in many state constitutions, unless the government pays your tuition for those private schools.
Being conservative, I'm not quite so radical. Vouchers will open up the competition as the Founders intended. Remember, Jefferson was a proponent of public schooling, but also a vehement opponent of any type of monopoly, which is what our public schools are.
Can't let the indoctrination slip; otherwise, these kids might grow up to think for themselves.
What happens when a child from a God-centered home is forced to attend our present day godless government schools?
He misses about 7 hours of religious indoctrination per weekday, and instead needs to rely on the other 9 waking hours at home during the week, and church, and Sunday school, and Summer Bible camp, and an uncountable number of other religious-related activities kids participate in. Poor, deprived child. Basic math is godless instruction that'll ruin his life unless it's presented as "Lo, and our Lord God spaketh unto the people, thou shalt not divide by zero for it is a sin before thy Lord, and thou shalt be cast down into the fires."
For the most part, from the posts I've seen here on Free Republic, evolutionists are bullies. They defend government force in education.
Evolutionists say if you're going to teach science, then teach science. Don't teach religious proselytization and instruction under the guise of science. That is a separate issue from the radical atheists who want to wipe any mention of religon from our public schools.
Can't let the godless indoctrination slip, otherwise, these kids might grow up to think for themselves. :-)
Do you understand? A religious vacuum is **IMPOSSIBLE**! A school must choose godless or God-centered. Neither is religiously neutral in content or consequences.
Lack of indoctrination is indoctrination? Black is white, white is black, doublethink rules.
Do you understand? A religious vacuum is **IMPOSSIBLE**! A school must choose godless or God-centered. Neither is religiously neutral in content or consequences.
Sort of the "If you're not with me you're against me" concept? No, godless is religiously neutral in that it promotes no religion over another, or over no religion, nor should it denigrate religion. God-centered is specific not only to individual religions, but to individual sects within those religions. One sect's "God-centered" is another sect's "godless."
So you are saying you are not like almost every other atheist.
So you do then agree that it is okay for the Public Schools to tell children that 'we are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights'?
With the emphasis that our rights are given by our Creator
After all, that is what the founders wrote was our foundational principle.
You are not biased against that are you? You would consider the neutral teaching of the founders to be neutral wouldn't you?
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