Posted on 04/02/2011 7:59:07 AM PDT by kindred
Thanks for your work, Boogieman.
I once believed in the pre-trib rapture because that’s what I grew up with as an evangelical. It didn’t take many years of study before I came to the same conclusions you have. Not only is your position based on sound study of the Bible, but it is also based in logic.
Being a Christian in America is not like being a Christian in China or Iran, where openly professing your faith opens up you and your family to torture, imprisonment, or a terrible death. Why would God spare us those fates during the tribulation when so many suffer the same now and have through persecutions over the last 2,000 years?
I’ve also learned to study prophecy and, indeed, the whole Bible in the light of a Jerusalem-centric viewpoint. Everything falls into place so easily when we don’t force a modern Western viewpoint on God’s word.
I have no quarrel with those who are pre- trib or mid-trib — it’s not a necessary article of faith. I could also be wrong. But I believe that most Christians, including myself, will adjust their eschatology accordingly when the antichrist makes his appearance. Things that may not be clear now will become clear as the end draws near.
The trbulation is not God’s day of wrath though God will prounce judgments during that time just as he has many other times, including those recorded in the Bible.
The day of wrath is when Jesus returns to kill the Antichrist and God’s enemies. Those of us who survive the tribulation will be raptured and join Jesus in that battle.
The trbulation is not God’s day of wrath though God will prounce judgments during that time just as he has many other times, including those recorded in the Bible.
The day of wrath is when Jesus returns to kill the Antichrist and God’s enemies. Those of us who survive the tribulation will be raptured and join Jesus in that battle.
Sorry for the double posts. My iPad seems prone to that on FR.
I never said the tribulation was THE DAY OF WRATH, I said it was judgement
However, the tribulation has many definitions and terms used to describe it
“The time of Jacob’s trouble is NOT judgement?”
You’re looking at it far too simplistically, I think. Tribulation and trouble are synonyms, and neither one of them carries the notion of judgement in and of themselves. Now, the prophecies of this time do refer to judgements that God will render, but they also refer to this time as a time of blessing, thanksgiving, redemption, etc. So, to say that “Tribulation=Judgement” is to ignore the entire scope of what has been revealed to us.
There are also many types of judgement spoken of in the Bible, such as judgements against nations, kings, and of course the last judgement. If a believer is living in a nation that is judged by God before the Tribulation, is he raptured away before that happens as well? Or must we admit that we are not guaranteed to be spared from every type of judgement, but rather one particular type?
“Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
Yes, this is a quote, attributed to the people trying to hide from the Lamb at the time of the Second Coming. The day of wrath comes after the Second Coming, and if you continue to read chapter 7, you will see that the wrath does not come until after the Elect are sealed and the great multitude of the saved, “which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” are already with the Lamb. That’s a verse that I’ve never heard pre-trib believers deal with, since it specifically says that this multitude “came out of great tribulation”. How could they come out of it if they were raptured before it began?
I think you might be confusing the events detailed in Revelation with the 7 year period of the Tribulation itself. Revelation does not only cover this 7 years, but rather, that is only one part of the prophecy. So, just because the wrath is spoken of in Revelation, does not mean that it occurs during the 7 years. All the references to the wrath and judgement of God come after His return, which comes at the end of the 7 years, not during or before it. During the tribulation there are hardships, trials, and troubles, but these are not the wrath of God.
No problem, I hope that it gives some food for thought, but always remember to go back to the Scripture to see what is true or not, since any one of us could be wrong.
“It didn’t take many years of study before I came to the same conclusions you have. Not only is your position based on sound study of the Bible, but it is also based in logic.”
Yes, I think the conclusion is pretty clear, but there are three things that I see which lead people to this error. First, as you said, many are taught these things in church, or from their youth, and don’t question it. Second, it’s a comforting thought to think that we won’t have to worry about some of these fearful events that are prophesied, so there is a strong emotional pull to the pre-trib rapture position. Lastly, as with anything in prophecy, it can easily be misread and misinterpreted, especially if one doesn’t spend a great deal of time studying the Scriptures yourself.
“I’ve also learned to study prophecy and, indeed, the whole Bible in the light of a Jerusalem-centric viewpoint. Everything falls into place so easily when we don’t force a modern Western viewpoint on God’s word.”
Yes, this is important to a lot of prophecy, since Jerusalem really is the focal point on this Earth of much of God’s plan. There are prophecies for other nations, and I believe there are prophecies for the West, but it can be hard to see these clearly, since there was no “England”, “Germany”, “France”, “America”, etc, at the time the prophecies were written.
I agree with you, the disputes about the timing of the rapture aren’t essential to salvation. One thing that I worry about though, is if some will be misled by false expectations. If a great many Christians are expecting to be raptured by Christ before the Antichrist reveals himself, then what might happen if the Antichrist reveals himself first, but in a semblance of Christ? Will some of these people be deluded into thinking that this is the Second Coming, thinking that Christ will return first?
I agree that that many will be deluded and, at first, will think him to be Jesus.
“23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.”
-Matthew 24:23-25
I agree that that many will be deluded and, at first, will think him to be Jesus.
“23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.”
-Matthew 24:23-25
Nice try, but parsing words means you lost the argument.
“Nice try, but parsing words means you lost the argument.”
Sorry, but that’s just a foolish statement. You can’t understand the Bible without carefully looking at the meaning of words. If you have some factual rebuttal to my points, I’d be glad to hear it.
It does give me food for thought. Thanks. I enjoy reading these types of discussions.
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