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Will the Mormon Church’s Attempts to Stay “Apolitical” Send the Opposite Message?
Commentary Magazine ^ | August 3, 2010 | Seth Mandel

Posted on 08/03/2011 4:48:52 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

Last month, a Gallup poll indicated some trouble for Mormon presidential candidates: 22 percent of respondents said they would not vote for a Mormon. And this time, the main problem was not among conservative evangelicals–as was once thought–but among self-identified Democrats, where the anti-Mormon bigotry was most pronounced.

Today, the Wall Street Journal has a fascinating article laying out the Mormon Church’s strategy for the current campaign, in which two candidates–Jon Huntsman and Mitt Romney–are members of the LDS Church:

“We not only don’t want to cross the line” between religion and politics, Michael Purdy, director of the church’s media relations office, said in an interview at church headquarters here. “We don’t want to go anywhere near the line.”

And that means being actively apolitical. In contrast to its relatively quiescent approach in 2008 when Romney ran for president, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is going on the offensive, aiming to swiftly counter anti-Mormon political arguments and push back against what it considers unfair portrayals of the faith.

The article also notes the Church will bar permanent employees and their wives from participating in the campaign, which will to some degree undermine the fundraising of the Mormon candidates. But this line the Church plans to walk–not supporting Mormon candidates but pushing back against anti-Mormon bias that emerges during the campaign–is bound to get blurred. When a presidential candidate is not Protestant, he is often taken as a representative of his faith. This is less of an obstacle for Catholics and Jews, who are familiar enough to the greater population they don’t usually need to worry about being the only Catholic or Jew voters will be acquainted with.

But that is not necessarily the case with Mormons, which is perhaps one reason Gallup found that 7 percent of respondents wouldn’t vote for a Catholic and 9 percent wouldn’t vote for a Jewish candidate–numbers significantly lower than those who say they won’t vote for a Mormon.

But more problematically, what happens in a general election if Romney is the Republican nominee? President Obama was, as a candidate, shockingly negative. (It is still difficult to imagine Obama was shameless enough to make an ad like this, which would have made Nixon or Kennedy blush and which inspired a defense of McCain from a vice president of La Raza.) When the inevitable attempts to summon this far-too-prevalent anti-Mormon prejudice provoke a response from the Church, won’t they be seen as defending Romney, first and foremost?

It may not be fair, but the Church is going to have a difficult time separating its own public relations work from that of the Romney campaign–at least as voters see it.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: elections; huntsman; mormon; romney
the Church is going to have a difficult time separating its own public relations work from that of the Romney campaign

I wonder how the mormon church's tax exempt status may be affected if they support Mitt openly?

1 posted on 08/03/2011 4:48:57 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; Tennessee Nana; ...

Ping


2 posted on 08/03/2011 4:49:46 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (My God can't be bribed by money or good works or bound by manmade "covenants". Romney's can.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Self identified Democrats have higher levels of anti-Mormon bigotry?????

How can this be? I’m shocked, just shocked.

The Democrats are the party of liberalism, tolerance, diversity, and all that. By definition, there can be no bigotry among good Democrats, because good Democrats celebrate diversity and tolerate anyone and everything. Right??? What am I missing?????


3 posted on 08/03/2011 4:51:42 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: greyfoxx39

If Palin, Bachmann, Demint, or Cain were Mormon, that would not affect my vote even a little. I would vote for them in a heartbeat. The problem is that the leading LDS politicians are far left libs - Romney and Reid - and that gives their politicians a bad name.


4 posted on 08/03/2011 5:00:34 PM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: greyfoxx39

You put your left side in
You leave your right side out
You put your left side in
and you shake it all about

You glad hand all the liberals
and you kiss up to ol Reid

And thats how you do the deed


5 posted on 08/03/2011 5:01:50 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Pollster1

People like you and I don’t want to vote for Romney because of his record. Add to this people who don’t trust Mormons and you have 0bama re-elected.


6 posted on 08/03/2011 5:10:04 PM PDT by forgotten man (forgotten man)
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To: forgotten man
People like you and I don’t want to vote for Romney because of his record. Add to this people who don’t trust Mormons and you have 0bama re-elected.

Any guess why the media are so enthusiastic about Mitt? They'll stay that way too . . . but only until he gets the nomination. Their only hope is that we will choose someone unelectable or at least indistinguishable from Obama - and Romney is both.

7 posted on 08/03/2011 5:17:35 PM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: greyfoxx39

One word:
Whitehorse Prophecy


8 posted on 08/03/2011 5:18:44 PM PDT by DaxtonBrown (HARRY: Money Mob & Influence (See my Expose on Reid on amazon.com written by me!))
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To: greyfoxx39

There are very few unfair portrayals of the LDS faith. There are however several unfair portrayals of other faiths in the LDS doctrine.

I am not sure that trying to defend a faith that at its core claims that everyone else is wrong is going to go over very well. Not only wrong but an abomination in the sight of the lord. Any defense of that will only bring several ugly truths to the surface quickly so the arguments will be total spin and double speak.


9 posted on 08/03/2011 5:20:13 PM PDT by pennyfarmer (Even a RINO will chew its foot off when caught in a trap.)
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To: greyfoxx39; All
From the article: The article also notes the Church will bar permanent employees and their wives from participating in the campaign, which will to some degree undermine the fundraising of the Mormon candidates. But this line the Church plans to walk...

Hey, if Joseph Smith, Lds founding dictator, could dictate in a busybody manner whether or not church member Newel Whitney was to retain his store in 1831 (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 63:42)-- and then for Whitney + church member Sidney Gilbert not to sell the store (D&C 64:26)...& for church member Josh Billings to dispose of land (D&C 63:39)...

...then ya better believe that the Lds dictatorial hierarchy will pinpoint when Lds grassroots members cannot exercise their citizenship rights...

...as well as dictate away to Romney were he ever to get into the White House.

If these so-called "revelations" can utterly control the commercial dealings of grassroots members, like Smith did, and probably like Lds "prophets" have done ever since just less noticeably -- then how can people like Lds scholar Richard Bushman claim that the Lds hierarchy won't weigh in on White House decisions?

They really can't.

10 posted on 08/03/2011 5:25:17 PM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: Colofornian
ABC News-Mormons on a Mission

What with the Warren Jeffs trial and this, Romney is prolly tearing at that beautiful hair.

11 posted on 08/03/2011 5:32:14 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (My God can't be bribed by money or good works or bound by manmade "covenants". Romney's can.)
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12 posted on 08/03/2011 5:35:42 PM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list.)
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To: greyfoxx39
I wonder how the mormon church's tax exempt status may be affected if they support Mitt openly?

What happened to the tax exempt status of the First AME Church with Democrats openly campaigning from the pulpit and front steps of the church buildings? The standard policy inside an LDS building is NO discussion of politics. Period. There are exceptionally sensitive about the issue. The know there are vultures who would love nothing better than to pull the tax exempt status of the LDS church. There are probably some lurking on this very thread.

13 posted on 08/03/2011 5:35:49 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: pennyfarmer
I am not sure that trying to defend a faith that at its core claims that everyone else is wrong is going to go over very well. You mean Roman Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims.....
14 posted on 08/03/2011 5:44:39 PM PDT by Seruzawa (Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for good a blaster kid.)
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To: greyfoxx39; DaxtonBrown; reaganaut; All
From the article: “We not only don’t want to cross the line” between religion and politics, Michael Purdy, director of the church’s media relations office, said in an interview at church headquarters here. “We don’t want to go anywhere near the line.” And that means being actively apolitical. In contrast to its relatively quiescent approach in 2008 when Romney ran for president, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is going on the offensive, aiming to swiftly counter anti-Mormon political arguments and push back against what it considers unfair portrayals of the faith.

Well, Mormon church. Counter the following:

(1) The Mormon church deems Joseph Smith's "revelations" in Doctrine & Covenants as their "god" speaking to them. Do the following two verses from Mormon "scripture" sound "apolitical" to anybody?

(a) Mayor & soon to be POTUS candidate Joseph Smith less than two years before his death -- and deemed as "scripture" to his disciples:

It may seem to some to be a very bold doctrine that we talk of --
a power which records or binds on earth and binds in heaven.
Nevertheless,
in all ages of the world,
whenever the Lord has given a dispensation of the priesthood to any man by actual revelation, or any set of men, this power has always been given.
Hence, WHATSOEVER those men did in authority,
in the name of the Lord, and did it truly and faithfully, and kept a proper and faithful record of the same,
IT BECAME A LAW ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN, AND COULD NOT BE ANNULLED...
...This is a faithful saying. Who can hear it? (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 128:9)

(b) Joseph Smith, 1834 "revelation" from Mormon god: ...the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever." (D&C 103:7) [Here, Smith means ONLY the latter-day "saints" -- because he was already on record a little more than 3 years prior claiming that ..."this church..." is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with which I...am pleased." (D&C 1:30)

(2) Some like to draw some sort of "comparison" to Kennedy running for POTUS in 1960, but do Catholics go around claiming re: the Pope -- as do Mormons re: their "prophet" -- that "whatsoever" this church authority does authoritatively that it becomes a "LAW ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN, AND COULD NOT BE ANNULLED"????

If you're a true-believing Mormon, then D&C 128:9 claims the Mormon "prophet" can establish laws not just for America, but the entire earth!!! And it's even worse than imbedded Obama"health" "care" -- once in; can't annull worldwide Mormon-imposed legislation!

And then to continue in this vein, please show us where any Pope has made similar spiritual-political imposing statements such as what you find from Lds leaders below...except for the first three statements, ALL of them were made by Lds leaders between the 1960s and 1980s...and even the third statement was being reprinted in official publications ranging from 1984 in a book -->July 7, 2011 in the Lds church-owned Deseret News! Talk about current...can't get anymore "current" than that!

Lds Leader Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words)
John Taylor Lds 'Prophet' #3 “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862)
Orson Hyde President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)
Heber J. Grant Lds 'Prophet' #7 "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984)
Harold B. Lee Lds 'Prophet' #11 ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989)
Spencer Kimball Lds 'Prophet' #12 "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983)
What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984)
Ezra Taft Benson Lds 'Prophet' #13 Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #5 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney? Ya hear that Jon Huntsman?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #9 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt? Still listening, Jon?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #10 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt? What say ye Jon?)
Mitt Romney as POTUS??? Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]

15 posted on 08/03/2011 5:50:58 PM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: Myrddin; greyfoxx39
The standard policy inside an LDS building is NO discussion of politics. Period. There are exceptionally sensitive about the issue. The know there are vultures who would love nothing better than to pull the tax exempt status of the LDS church.

Do the quotes on post #15 sound like Mormon leaders for years have been "worrying" about overreach on political matters? (Not on your life!)

16 posted on 08/03/2011 5:53:03 PM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: Myrddin
There are probably some lurking on this very thread.

ME..ME....Pick MEEE.....the mormon church is a for-profit corporation thinly disguised as a religious entity.

How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ

"Smith's new book is titled The Book of Mammon: A Book About A Book About The Corporation That Owns The Mormons. If you had no idea before now that the Church was actually owned by a corporation, read on. It gets worse.

And if you harbor the happy illusion that all Church policy is the result of prayerful consideration by the general authorities, be prepared to have those illusions shattered. Much of what has been handed down to us in the way of “inspired” Church programs originated in Marketing or some other department of the Church Office Building and was later approved by the G.A.'s.

17 posted on 08/03/2011 5:57:05 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (My God can't be bribed by money or good works or bound by manmade "covenants". Romney's can.)
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To: DaxtonBrown; reaganaut; greyfoxx39
Whitehorse Prophecy

Time: June 4, 2007...during Romney's previous campaign.

Publishing source: Salt Lake Tribune,

Headline: Romney candidacy has resurrected last days prophecy of Mormon saving the Constitution

Excerpt: Note especially the bold face portion below:

WASHINGTON - It's Mormon lore, a story passed along by some old-timers about the importance of their faith and their country. In the latter days, the story goes, the U.S. Constitution will hang by a thread and a Mormon will ride in on a metaphorical white horse to save it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says it does not accept the legend - commonly referred to as the "White Horse Prophecy" - as doctrine. The issue, however, has been raised on those occasions when Mormons have sought the Oval Office: George Romney was asked about it during his bid in 1968, Sen. Orrin Hatch discussed it when he ran in 2000, and now Mitt Romney. "It is being raised," says Phil Barlow, a professor of Mormon history and culture at Utah State University. "I've heard it a bit lately." Romney says he doesn't believe in the supposed prophecy, nor did his father when he ran. "I haven't heard my name associated with it or anything of that nature," Mitt Romney told The Salt Lake Tribune during an interview earlier this year. "That's not official church doctrine. There are a lot of things that are speculation and discussion by church members and even church leaders that aren't official church doctrine. I don't put that at the heart of my religious belief." The disputed prophecy was recorded in a diary entry of a Mormon who had heard the tale from two men who were with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, Ill. when he supposedly declared the prophecy. "You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed," the diary entry quotes Smith as saying. "It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber." Not only will the Mormons save the Constitution, under the prediction, but the prophecy goes further, insinuating that Mormons will control the government. "Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke the nations afar off, and you obey it, for the laws go forth from Zion," the prophecy says.

In light of...
...Mormon "scriptures" like D&C 103:7, where Lds "saints" are promised to "possess...the earth...forever and ever"...
...and statements like Lds "apostle" Orson Hyde claiming "Mormonism will rule every nation"...
...and Lds "apostle-turned-'prophet'" John Taylor saying that Mormons would become "political...saviors"
...The White Horse prophesy is one of arrogant Mormon control.

18 posted on 08/03/2011 6:00:23 PM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: Seruzawa; pennyfarmer; Elsie

Penny: I am not sure that trying to defend a faith that at its core claims that everyone else is wrong is going to go over very well.
____________________________________________

Do you mean this penny ???

The statue to Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, which stands in the middle of Salt Lasker City, Utah...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2753623/posts?page=436#436

It reads in part: (quoting Joseph Smith)

“I asked which of the sects was right and which I should join. I was answered I must join none of them; they are all wrong; they teach for doctrine the commandment of men; I received a promise that the fullness of the gospel would at some future time be known to me”

In other words only Mormonism is right and all other religions are wrong, and especially Christianity, of which Joseph Smith claims he was inquiring.

Later Joseph Smith claims that the gospel included multiple sex partners for exaltation, the younger the better..

And in 1831 he began to take advantage of that “promise that the fullness of the gospel would at some future time be known to me” for by that time apparantly he had hearsd from the mormon god..

The very thing his devoted follower Warren Jeffs is now being charged with in his court trial..


19 posted on 08/03/2011 6:06:51 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: greyfoxx39

“We not only don’t want to cross the line” between religion and politics, Michael Purdy, director of the church’s media relations office, said in an interview at church headquarters here. “We don’t want to go anywhere near the line.”
_______________________________________________

No temple recommend for you Michael

You are not sustaining “the prophet”

The first mormon leader and prophet and president and general of the mormon army and mayor of Nauvoo, Joey Smith, whom all good mormons MUST honor and praise and sustain RAN FOR POLITICAL OFFICE

in fact he was running for POTUS in 1844 when he got himself killed in that shootout

and the mormons went out and canvassed for him door to door throughout the land..

Oh SNAP


20 posted on 08/03/2011 6:13:39 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
The first mormon leader and prophet and president and general of the mormon army and mayor of Nauvoo, Joey Smith, whom all good mormons MUST honor and praise and sustain RAN FOR POLITICAL OFFICE

in fact he was running for POTUS in 1844 when he got himself killed in that shootout

and the mormons went out and canvassed for him door to door throughout the land..

Oh SNAP

gobsmacked

21 posted on 08/03/2011 6:16:12 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (My God can't be bribed by money or good works or bound by manmade "covenants". Romney's can.)
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To: Myrddin; greyfoxx39

The standard policy inside an LDS building is NO discussion of politics. Period.

- - - —
That may be the official policy, but I have been in the pews when ‘voting guides’ came down from SLC on things like gambling initiatives.

There is official policy and there is how things really work in the LDS church.


22 posted on 08/03/2011 6:29:29 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

Don’t forget the Islamic type response to persecution :

Oration Delivered by First Counselor Sidney Rigdon On the 4th of July, 1838, which Smith made into a pamphlet. (excerpts):

We take God and all the holy angels to witness this day, that we warn all men in the name of Jesus Christ, to come on us no more forever, for from this hour, we will bear it no more, our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity. The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination, for we will follow them, till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seal of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed. —Remember it then all MEN.

No man shall be at liberty to come into our streets, to threaten us with mobs, for if he does, he shall atone for it before he leaves the place, neither shall he be at liberty, to villify and slander any of us, for suffer it we will not in this place.

Neither will we indulge any man, or set of men, in instituting vexatious law suits against us, to cheat us out of our just rights, if they attempt it we say we be unto them. http://www.mrm.org/topics/documents-speeches/sidney-rigdons-4th-july-oration

Moreover, when Smith became the target in a newspaper known as the Nauvoo Expositor, he ordered the destruction of the press. http://www.mrm.org/violence-in-early-mormonism


23 posted on 08/03/2011 8:43:45 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: greyfoxx39
Will the Mormon Church’s Attempts to Stay “Apolitical” Send the Opposite Message?

Not quite right...

Will the Mormon Church’s Attempts to SAY “Apolitical” Send the Opposite Message?

24 posted on 08/03/2011 8:44:01 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Tennessee Nana
And in 1831 he began to take advantage of that “promise that the fullness of the gospel would at some future time be known to me” for by that time apparantly he had hearsd from the mormon god..

HUH??

Was the BoM 'translated' AFTER 1831??


25 posted on 08/03/2011 8:50:35 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

No by 1831 he had “heard about” “the gospel” and so he tried it out with Fanny Arger

“Later Joseph Smith claims that the gospel included multiple sex partners for exaltation, the younger the better..”


26 posted on 08/03/2011 8:57:12 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana; Seruzawa; pennyfarmer; Elsie

I for one can not understand why Mormons want to be considered Christian. After all from day one Mormons did not want to be considered Christian. They battled to be seperate for the first 140 years, now they want you to believe that they are Christian too.


27 posted on 08/04/2011 6:44:07 AM PDT by pennyfarmer (Even a RINO will chew its foot off when caught in a trap.)
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To: pennyfarmer

I think it’s a difference between wanting to be considered “Christian” & “orthodox Christian”. Christian is a belief in Christ as Savior. Orthodox Christian is rather a set of “orthodox” Christian beliefs. For centuries, Protestants weren’t considered “Christian” by Catholics. They were considered heretics. Funny how time changes things.

I used to enjoy the battles here between the LDS & Anti’s. There were some fascinating arguments that were very educational. Seems like all the good LDS advocates have been kicked off. Too bad from an educational standpoint.


28 posted on 08/04/2011 8:51:55 AM PDT by Confab
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To: Confab
Seems like all the good LDS advocates have been kicked off.

Other than the oxymoron, the LDS folks committed harikari in one fashion or another.

29 posted on 08/04/2011 10:48:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Confab; pennyfarmer
I think it’s a difference between wanting to be considered “Christian” & “orthodox Christian”. Christian is a belief in Christ as Savior. Orthodox Christian is rather a set of “orthodox” Christian beliefs. For centuries, Protestants weren’t considered “Christian” by Catholics. They were considered heretics. Funny how time changes things.

Protestants and Catholics didn't disagree as to the number of gods; Christians and Mormons do. (Sorry, but polytheism doesn't qualify as "Christianity" any more than it'd qualify as Judaism)

Protestants and Catholics didn't disagree on the Scripture laying out Jesus' basic role in relation to salvation; Christians and Mormons do (Sorry, but the Mormon redefinition of Jesus as a "saved being" and Mormons in general as fellow saviors alongside Jesus doesn't qualify as Christianity)

Protestants and Catholics didn't disagree on the Scripture laying out mankind's role as adopted children of God through Jesus Christ; Christians and Mormons do (not only do Mormons say we've been children all along due to a made-up "pre-existence," but Mormonism = adopted "gods" who will know all things and have all things subjected to them. (Sorry, that's not Christianity)

Protestants and Catholics have always agreed that the end game was living eternally with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ; Mormons somehow think people can be "saved" in a lesser degree of heaven and never be reconciled with the Father. What? That is "salvation?"

30 posted on 08/04/2011 12:25:26 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Colofornian

Maybe you missed the point. Protestants & Catholics disagreed on who was Christian for centuries. You’ve named many differences between LDS & “Christians”. There many differences between Catholics & Protestants as well such as authority, baptism, faith vs. works, etc.

I guess the point is, what makes you more authoritative on who’s Christian, than the Catholics who claimed likewise for centuries? Because LDS differ on Christian dogma?

If a Catholic confronted you & claimed you weren’t Christian because you don’t accept the Pontiff & the line of Authority, or because you don’t believe that works are part of the saving process, as they did for centuries, would he be correct?

Christians have killed each other for centuries over these very points. Seems like kind of a ridiculous argument to me.


31 posted on 08/04/2011 12:48:15 PM PDT by Confab
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To: Tennessee Nana

All religions teach that others are wrong. Yours too. Pot meet kettle.


32 posted on 08/04/2011 3:16:12 PM PDT by Seruzawa (Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for good a blaster kid.)
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To: Seruzawa

Are you a Mormon ???


33 posted on 08/04/2011 4:56:22 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Confab

If a Catholic confronted you & claimed you weren’t Christian because you don’t accept the Pontiff & the line of Authority, or because you don’t believe that works are part of the saving process, as they did for centuries, would he be correct?
________________________________________

Im 62

Thats never happened to me in my lifetime...

Catholics and Protestantsd agree on the virgin birth of Jesus

The Trinity

That the LORD Jesus Christ is and has always been, God

Jesus shedding His blood on the Cross and dying on the Cross for our salvation

That there were no gods before God

Mormons do not believe any of those tenets of Christianity...


34 posted on 08/04/2011 5:02:30 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Confab
Confab, thanks for responding.

Allow me to give two word pictures which I think outlines what we're talking about.

Word Pix #1: Hatfields & McCoys

Let's say for now we compare the Protestant-Catholic feuds to a type of Hatfield-McCoys' feud. These families actually lived in differing states. (McCoys, Kentucky; Hatfields, WV).

The thing is: They actually all lived in the same Tug Valley, largely separated by the Tug River.

Let's say for argument sake -- to make this word picture fit -- that there were boundary disagreements somewhere as to what was really Pike County, Kentucky -- and what constituted Mingo County, WV. Let's say a # of citizens lived among and across these boundaries -- and there was just plain disagreement over where the actual boundaries were meant to be.

Even though the real Hatfield-McCoy battles began over a McCoy returned Union soldier killed by Confederate-minded Hatfields in 1865, let's say in my analogy that many murders occurred over pure boundary issues. Somebody might have a residence in one state, but was killed for being perceived to be in the other; or, somebody's property straddled both properties, but was killed for not being considered a true "West Virginian" or not being a Confederate or not being a true "Kentuckyian." [Certainly, in the real Tug Valley, the McCoys were at a disadvantage in that the Valley leaned heavily Confederate].

Let's say in my word picture that eventually peace was sown by reformers who were able to emphasize that, "Hey, we're all residents of the same Tug Valley. We're all Americans. Let's unite over those two points of unity."

The Reformer added that he wasn't going to sweep under the rug the differences of Union vs. Confederacy; or KY vs. WV; or Pike Co. vs. Mingo Co.; or ill-will over past injustices (murders, etc.). But the reformer emphasized that just as God was a diverse trinity--a "tri" within a "unity," they, too, could be both diverse and to some degree united.

Now. Where do the Mormons fit into to this word picture?

Well, you're argument is like somebody coming into the Tug Valley region and saying:

"McCoys & Hatfields disagreed on who was a true Tug Valley representative citizen for generations...There many differences between McCoys & Hatfields...You've named many differences between Americans and Kolobians. I guess the point is, what makes you more authoritative on who’s a Tug Valley resident or who's a true American, than the Hatfields who claimed likewise for generations? Is it because Kolobians differ on similar truth claims? Tug Valley residents have killed each other for generations over these very points. Seems like kind of a ridiculous argument to me."

Do you see what you're doing? You're using local disagreements (Hatfields & McCoys) -- which, indeed, were serious...no need to downplay that -- to reduce the differences between say, Americans and Kolobians. (And, btw, ask Mormons...they'll tell you they think they pre-existed on a star near Kolob).

Give us a break, Confab! What? Just 'cause the Hatfields & McCoys did what they did...
...you claim we can't determine who's a true resident of...
...planet Earth?
(Or who's a true citizen of America?)
(Or who's a true citizen of the Tug Valley?)

Believe me, if Kolobians came into the Tug Valley and claimed, "we're citizens of Tug Valley," too, ya think the boundary disagreements in my analogy makes it too difficult of a question as to determine if Kolobians are Tug Valley residents (or aliens), too?

Word Pix #2: LDS vs. RLDS vs. FLDS vs. Temple Lot

Imagine me doing the same thing you're doing: Imagine that I point back the 30s & 40s when...
...the Utah Mormons were having it out with the fundamentalist Mormons (over polygamy)
...& the Missouri-based RLDS would have nothing to do with the Utah Mormons
...& the Utah Mormons were mad @ the small Temple Lot offshoot restorationists 'cause they wouldn't sell the very property that Joseph Smith prophesied the Mormon Jesus would return to near Independence, MO.

* Temple Lot had claim to the prophesied property.
* The RLDS had claims to Smith's copyrighted revision of the KJV Bible as well as claims to Joseph Smith's bloodline -- his child, grandchild, and great-grandchild taking over as head "prophets" of the RLDS.
* The FLDS had claims to being the only Mormons still being faithful to Doctrine & Covenants 132.
* And the Utah Mormons had claim to being the biggest, richest & most well-organized.

Obviously, they're all divided. They all had their own head "prophets" who disagreed with each other -- over even who was the true & faithful Mormon remnant.

Now what if I came into this and said (similarly to what you have said):

"The RLDS & FLDS & LDS & Temple Lotters disagreed on who was a true Mormon for generations...
"...There many differences between these four groups...
"...We can agree many differences exist between LDS and its offshoots. I guess the point is, what makes you more authoritative on who’s a true Mormon? -- Especially given that the LDS who have claimed these other groups aren't Mormon..."
[Note #1: see Lds "prophet's" Hinckley comments on the Larry King show about fundamentalist Mormons, for example...where Hinckley said there was no such thing as a fundamentalist Mormon].
[Note #2: I know RLDS Josephite missionaries were shot at in Utah in May 1864 by Lds. Union Vedette (May 13, 1864): "RLDS Missionaries Beaten and Nearly Murdered by LDS" http://www.truthandgrace.com/1864UnionVedette0513.htm]

Bottom line: My point is that if I claimed Christians were Mormons, too,
and that because the Mormons couldn't agree among themselves who the real Mormons were,
does that mean then that the brand name "Mormon" is so convoluted & so up for grabs that Christians could be determined to be in the running to claim it, too?...
...and then for keepers, how'd it be if I reacted to people who said that Christians couldn't be Mormons with comments like 'Seems like kind of a ridiculous argument to me?'"

Nice try, tho, Confab on your wedge arguments. They tend to work pretty well on people. Mormons claim all the time that the denominations are so divided that one prophet and one church is needed and that's it -- as if the Mormons were all unified...[of course, they have to define the fLDS out of existence -- like Hinckley did; or they have to ignore or try to downplay Temple Lot & JST (revised Bible) realities...etc.]

With advocates abroad like yourself, no wonder people slide down a religious Bahai-like pathway where they run everything together about God and begin to conclude things like...
...a fundamentalist Mormon-is-a-Mormon-is-a-Christian-is-a-Jonestownite-is-a-Branch-Davidian-is-a-Heavens-Gate-ian-is-a-Urantia believer-is a Church Universal & Triumphant-is-a-Wiccan-Witch-is-Voodoo practitioner-is-a-New-Ager-is-a-whirling dervish-is-a-Hindu-is-a-Sikh-is-a-Muslim!

So just 'cause differences exist and competing claims to authority over what is the true religion exists and some overlap upon each other on things...no true faith exists? Or they're all in doubt? Or they can all claim to be "Christian," too to various degrees?

35 posted on 08/04/2011 5:03:55 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Tennessee Nana

Ping to post #35


36 posted on 08/04/2011 5:04:59 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Confab
If you've not noticed; we Catholics and Protestants do NOT fight each other in MORMON themed threads.

Neither do Calvinists and Arminians,
or tongue speakers versus not.

We don't do DEFENSE at all (unless someone gets really riled) and we avoid rabbitholes and red herrings like the plague.

37 posted on 08/04/2011 7:47:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian

Ca-ching!!


38 posted on 08/04/2011 7:50:14 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

What I have noticed is that Protestants fight the Catholics on the Catholic threads. I also noticed they kill each other in other parts of the world.

I also noticed that I made some pretty basic comments & questions & was treated w/ the same rudeness as many others here even though I rarely post here.

As a Christian, I pray for you folks.


39 posted on 08/04/2011 8:55:22 PM PDT by Confab
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To: Confab
I also noticed that I made some pretty basic comments & questions & was treated w/ the same rudeness as many others here even though I rarely post here.

As a Christian, I pray for you folks.

Thanks!

We need a LOT of it!


 


 
Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23
 
  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
 


Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
 

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
 


40 posted on 08/05/2011 4:43:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Confab
I also noticed that I made some pretty basic comments & questions & was treated w/ the same rudeness as many others here even though I rarely post here.

You are relatively new on FR, it seems from your record.

You've 'rarely' posted anywhere...

I used to enjoy the battles here between the LDS & Anti’s.

Yeah...

We can REALLY get 'rude' with them!

41 posted on 08/05/2011 4:52:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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