Posted on 03/07/2012 5:46:37 AM PST by marktwain
That is really dangerous advice. The police and prosecutors will not look kindly on the Mozambique Drill or any kill shots administered after the perp is incapacitated or running away. They WILL be able to tell the difference between the hits. Hit fast and hit hard, but only hit until the threat stops. Anything more and you will likely face a murder rap.
The oft-repeated advice purportedly offerred by cops "if you shoot the bad guy outside drag him inside befoire the cops come" is equally bad, if not worse. NEVER EVER ALTER THE SCENE IN ANY WAY EXCEPT IF REQUIRED TO RENDER AID TO THE INJURED. Move the perp, move the weapons, even clean up the mess (a very common reaction) and you may very well be headed for jail.
Excellent point.
Lol, I hear ya...much easier said than done though. Corpses are horribly messy, smelly, heavy, tough and surprisingly enduring. Anything that touches them becomes covered with "evidence". Contrary to poplar belief, they burn very poorly. (Crematories have retorts capable of generating a 3000 degree flame, and even that leaves an cadaver. The cremated remains have to be mechanically smashed and large matter sifted out to produce the familiar ash.) Corpses float well, too. I can't recall the bouyancy values exactly, but a decomposing body has the power to float even when encased in a concrete-filled container.
Never point a gun at anyone unless you are planning to shoot to kill them. Normal combat training is two to the chest followed by two to the head. Any defensive training course will tell you to fire multiple rounds until the threat stops. At close range that should mean death.
Trying to shoot someone to just wound them is dangerous advice. A wounded intruder with a weapon can still shoot you. Always shoot to kill.
Chasing and shooting a fleeing suspect is another matter.
Chances are overwhelming that you WILL have to talk to the police eventually. I respect the fact that you’d want to talk to and have your lawyer present before answering any questions. But from a legal standpoint, you’ve committed an aggravated assault or homicide. You DID intentionally or knowingly cause grievous bodily injury or death to another human being.
That said assault or homicide was justifiable in terms of defense of self or someone else is an affirmative defense that has to be asserted. If the cops/prosecutor/coroner have any respect for decency, the self-defense laws and Constitution (and many do), they’ll conduct a thorough investigation, perhaps an inquest, listen to your story and let it go. That is how most legit self-defense cases go. If you are in People’s Republic of (name the state), then you’ll go to trial and have to assert your defense there.
If you choose not to say anything to the police, and hang onto your Fifth Amendment all the way, you very well may end up going to prison. I can easily establish that you shot someone. That is all I need to secure some degree of criminal conviction. You need to convince the trier of fact that you had good and legal reason to shoot that someone. Note the term ‘trier of fact’. That would be a jury. Why go all the way to trial if you can deflect it?
I agree that you should be careful in what you say, and that you need a lawyer before you say anything other than what is necessary to summon the authorities and obtain medical aid for those who are injured (including the perp). But you can’t stay mum forever or you are likely going to do time.
bttt
in Texas thank goodness for the castle doctrine.
Even if you do ‘cooperate’ theres no guarantee you wont be arrested and charged. Apart from identifying yourself as the victim and a very brief stmt about why you shot you should say nothing more. Let the police know there will be no more input until your lawyer is present. Most police, tho not too bright, can figure out roughly what occurred if its your home, its been broken in to and theres a dead or wounded guy inside. The main theme is not to give evidence w/o your attorney present and certainly not immediately following the event. I think its safe to say universally police aren’t required to give any stmts immediately following a shooting in which theyre involved. To my knowledge theyre given some long time to make stmts.
To reiterate the police are never your friend or ally. They’re there at (presumably) your request to make an arrest. They aren’t your friend nor are they there to protect you. They’re a govt employee tasked to follow the orders of the politicians who pay their salaries.
Whatever you plan on doing, make sure you rehearse it well and many times.
If you have a statement plannned for the arriving police, rehearse it so you say it the way you want to when stressed.
If you have a plan for discussing things narrating etc to the 911 operator, plan it/reheasre it-especially the part about self-ID for them- “I’m a white male 50, 180 lbs with brown hair and a short gray beard, there are two other adult females and two infants in my home with me” etc.
Everything you say to 911 can and will be used against you as mentioned. It is voluntarily provided evidence (not safe from the 5th protections)a confession if you will.
I recommend installing a security system with full motion (FMV)video both inside and outside-the outside component is always recording, the inside system is recorded only after you turn it on for the night/absences.
Finally, if your security system is equipped with an inside alarm siren etc, have your technician set it so it goes off for 30 seconds (to alert you initially)when in the “home” mode then self-silences-otherwise you will not hear anything else if it is on. Worst than not having a security system at all in my opinion. 911 nor you could communicate. If your alarm company calls, ignore them; they will call the Police inless you tell them it is a false alarm and give them the (correct) password.
My system is two parts- commercial interior and exterior entrance breach and PIR motion/Glass break coverage, and a separate passive IR (PIR) audio/video system that I would not give to the police until I have made a copy-they get the copy later, after it is all over. It is my property and I do not have to provide it to the state if it is self-incriminating in any way-my attorney decides that.
Most improtantly-practice as much as you can-you only do well under stress what you repeatedly practiced in training.
Excellent video.
It also helps a very frightened citizen who has just defended themselves with deadly force to know that the next people through the doorway will be the police, not the intruder’s buddy or a wounded intruder. Most folks in that situation are not thinking clearly at all ..... fight/flight instincts & adrenaline are through the roof.
I was a police officer for three decades. I ran criminal investigations for a multi-county area. I handled a number of self-defense shootings and homicide investigations, including those where police officers shot perps. Even police officers are NOT automatically off the hook for a duty-related shooting. In most cases even police-related shootings go to an inquest. I will grant that police officers often get far more benefit of the doubt than what a private citizen may receive.
I will tell you from personal experience that if you are involved in a ‘clean shoot’, barring residency in some deep blue socialist hellhole, you are going to be OK if you answer (carefully) the questions - under guidance of legal counsel - to establish the fact and the perception that you were in reasonable fear for yourself, another person or on firm ground of the Castle Doctrine (if that has been enacted in your locale).
Staying dumb and relying on stupid lawyer tricks is the way to go if your shooting was not justified. But why would you play chicken with a prosecutor and a jury if you could avoid it by laying out the facts? If you didn’t commit any crime, and even if you did, it behooves you to not miss ANY opportunity to avoid a trial. Your perp may look more sympathetic than you do, especially with the passage of time. “He was just a kid! He was a young father who loved his (four illegitimate by four different women) kids! He was going to college! He was just getting his life together!”
I’m not saying that you allow yourself to be buffaloed or railroaded into any sort of plea. If you need to play hardball to clear your name, and if trial is the only way to do that, then by all means go ahead. But I strongly advise not rolling those dice. Without your side of the story, what have I got to go on? Someone is dead and the evidence points to the actor as being you. Maybe there’s clear sign of forcible entry, maybe not. Maybe there’s evidence of criminal intent on the part of the perp, maybe not. Maybe there’s evidence of the perp’s capacity and willingness to hurt you, maybe not. Maybe you were in reasonable fear, maybe not. How do I know? I maintain that the best way is to tell me.
Yes, get a lawyer. Yes, shut up until he/she talks with you and you decide on the best approach. But it is foolish to follow a blanket policy of omerta no matter what.
Oh..I thought it was Dead Guy Up in here.
I was a cop for many years, and I must take exception your generalization. I think I do have some native intellect and the ability to discern and discriminate facts. True, we are not friend or ally, especially in the beginning. That takes time and investigation and gathering of information.
You are correct, that even if you cooperate, that is no guarantee that you won’t be arrested and charged. There are regrettably over-zealous cops and prosecutors all over. But in most cases, certainly the ones I was involved in, people who were defending themselves, especially in the sanctity of their homes, are not. There are exceptions, mostly where you have doctrinaire liberals running the show. If you live in such a place, I recommend moving somewhere else more conservative.
But this is why I do concur that the less you say before getting a lawyer, the better. My officers who got involved in duty-related shootings got counsel before going into details. I have no problem with that, nor if a private citizen does. I am in no hurry to make an arrest, especially if I don’t have reason to believe that there is a continuing threat to the citizenry. I can and will take my time to understand what happened and get it right. But very often, the physical evidence and circumstances paint an ambiguous or incomplete picture of the incident. That is where I need to have the party(ies) fill me in on what happened, what they perceived was happening and how they felt at the time. The elements of culpability are all somewhat subjective (Intentionally, Knowingly, Recklessly, Negligently). They sometimes can be inferred from the evidence and circumstances and sometimes they are best established by the statements of the people involved. This can be for good or ill.
Something never to say: “The gun just went off.” Really? Then you didn’t shoot that guy because you were in fear for your life, but rather because you mishandled your firearm? Another - say there are multiple actors. Maybe the one you shot wasn’t the one who was armed, but he was the first one in through your door - the other guy ran away. Think that’s important for the investigator to know? You saw that the actor had some type of edged weapon in his hand? Maybe I’ll take anther look at the discarded screwdriver lying under the tool bench in the garage where the action took place and see if it has the bad guys’ prints or DNA on it. Yes, some of this can come from your lawyer, without you having to make a (potentially incriminating) statement. But your lawyer’s statements aren’t what are admissable in court, they aren’t evidence. If you want something on the record, you will need to be the one to say it. And if you are ‘clean’ you ARE going to want to be on the record at some point.
Help me out here, throw me a bone. After all, I’m pretty stupid, really, and it would be helpful if you’d point out the exculpatory evidence that would go in your favor.
A narrated account will be compared to the forensic evidence. If they differ in any way, or there is a judgement call as to what may or may not have happened based on the evidence, the evidence will win and it will impeach your recording.
What needs to be on the recording is that there’s an intruder, that you’ve dialed 911, that the police are on their way, and ‘don’t make me shoot you, I have a gun’. If you shoot them, and you are a trained first responder or have a current CPR card, and you are sure they are dead, then begin efforts at resuscitation.
If they prosecute you, then they will ask why a trained first responder failed to try and administer first aid after the danger had clearly passed (’after the danger passed’ is a judgement by the prosecutor after the fact that may or may not work with the jury).
I work with corrections officers that travel everywhere with a concealed weapon. They are EVER vigilant when off duty. They will come after you professionally in a DGU case even if the shooting was righteous by showing that you failed to provide first aid after the fact.
If you don’t have the luxury of 911, and you’ve already shot them, say as little as possible.
I’m not advocating “shooting to wound.” That is silly Hollywood stuff. “Aim for the center of mass and fire until the target is no longer a threat” would be my advice. “2 to the chest followed by 2 to the head” is fine for Baghdad or Tora Bora but in a domestic self-defense scenario is a recipe for 20 to life in the Big House. The prosecutor will characterize a deliberate head shot as an execution-especially if it was not the first shot or if it was administered after the target ceased advancing.
“I can easily establish that you shot someone. That is all I need to secure some degree of criminal conviction. You need to convince the trier of fact that you had good and legal reason to shoot that someone.”
If I’m on a dark street in the city, that is correct. If I’m in my home in Arizona, and the shooting is of a stranger at 1:30 AM, and the door has been forced open, and the bullets hit him in the front or side...you’ll need a lot more than a corpse to get a conviction.
Pointing out a few facts - “I heard the door give way”, or, “When he started down the hall, I was between him and my kids” - that is probably OK. After that, “I’ve been scared, and now I want to talk to an attorney before saying anything else” - and then SHUTTING UP COMPLETELY - makes sense to me.
Better to spend the rest of the night in jail than to say something that can be misconstrued by a liberal DA in Pima County AZ...they cannot use, “He didn’t talk a lot of the cops” as evidence against me. But if in my emotional state I make a comment that doesn’t square with the physical evidence, they CAN argue I lied to cover up guilt!
Bookmark...Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
A couple years ago there was a house party that turned mini-riot a couple houses down from mine. I called 911 when a guy started yelling “I am going to kill you” while holding his arm out, I presumed he had a gun, but at 2am, i couldnt tell for sure. The 911 operator started asking me personal questions, including, are you on drugs? are you in a gang? are there any warrants out for your arrest? before she assured me that the cops were on their way. It seemed to me that she was more concerned that i was involved with illicit activity than the fact that i was hiding in my bathtub hoping not to get hit by a stray bullet. It still took 15min for a squad car to show up even though there is a copshop & donutshop less than half a mile away.
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