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EPA-NASCAR green deal covers everything--but racing!
washingtonexaminer.com ^ | 5/22/12 | Paul Bedard

Posted on 05/22/2012 3:52:32 PM PDT by ColdOne

President Obama’s eco-friendly EPA inked a green partnership deal with high-octane NASCAR Monday to promote recycling and environmentally-friendly products to the sport’s millions of fans. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, NASCAR will encourage fans to buy “sustainable concessions” at races, expand the use of “safer chemical products,” conserve water, reduce waste, promote recycling, push products approved by the EPA that have a small enviro footprint and encourage suppliers to get an “E3 tuneup” aimed at promoting sustainable manufacturing.

Missing: any talk of greening races or race cars that consume about two million gallons of gas a year and average five miles per gallon.

“Yes, the focus is on suppliers and programs, not green cars,” said an EPA spokesman.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonexaminer.com ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
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1 posted on 05/22/2012 3:52:39 PM PDT by ColdOne
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To: ColdOne

omg what a bunch of pussies.


2 posted on 05/22/2012 3:57:37 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (they have no god but caesar)
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To: ColdOne

Tony Stewart is a hell of a racer, but to see him in a photo op with Obozo makes me lose a lot of respect for him.

NASCAR getting into bed with the EPA is like the chickens inviting the wolves for dinner.


3 posted on 05/22/2012 3:57:55 PM PDT by Never on my watch (I'd rather light a candle than curse the flatulence.)
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To: ColdOne

EPA shakedown


4 posted on 05/22/2012 3:58:26 PM PDT by Doogle (((USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated)))
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To: ColdOne
push products approved by the EPA....and certain senators and congresscritters have stock in....
5 posted on 05/22/2012 3:59:57 PM PDT by Doogle (((USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated)))
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To: ColdOne

Screw ‘em! After having been a fan for over 50 years,,,, it’s boring! The racing consists of waiting for the Big One in the last couple of laps. The cars are all the same! I long for the days of Junior J, and Smokey Yunick, when things were interesting.


6 posted on 05/22/2012 4:00:29 PM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: ColdOne

Paul, NASCAR is about performance. Trying to run an Alcohol-Gasoline mix lowers performance and makes the cars run hotter.


7 posted on 05/22/2012 4:01:52 PM PDT by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: ColdOne

Well there went NASCAR. I’ll find a new sport to watch.


8 posted on 05/22/2012 4:07:21 PM PDT by Ben Mugged ("Life's tough..... It's even tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
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To: ColdOne

filed: May 4, 2012 • New York
Watkins Glen International signs on to wind farms project

Credit: Written by Jason Whong, www.stargazette.com 3 May 2012 ~~

WATKINS GLEN — It’s not clear if a proposed $200 million wind farm will be built in Schuyler and Chemung counties, but if it happens, some turbines will stand at Watkins Glen International.

Michael Printup, president of WGI, announced Thursday that the racetrack has signed on for the electricity project being developed by NextEra Energy Resources, of Juno Beach, Fla.

WGI’s parent company, International Speedway Corp., already works with NextEra for clean energy credits and marketing opportunities at its tracks in Daytona and Miami, Printup said, but this deal takes the companies in a new direction.

“I think there’s nothing like clean energy that can move the little needle,” Printup said.

“With us and the popularity of NASCAR, you have 5 or 6 million people watching us on TV; that’s the crux of this relationship for NextEra and for Watkins Glen International.”

Ross Groffman, development director of NextEra, said the proposed wind farm is in very early stages, so a lot of the details are still being worked out.

If the project is built, several turbines will be placed at high points and ridge lines on the 1,832 acres of the track, he said.

WGI is not the first landowner to sign on, but it is the largest, he said.

“We’re very excited about the fact that Watkins Glen has signed on as a landowner who will participate in the project,” Groffman said. “We think the relationship we have with Watkins Glen and their view of renewable energy and working with us will be a tremendous benefit.”

It would be NextEra’s first time building a wind farm at a race track.

“We think it’ll be great for our business as well as for Mike’s, and it’ll be a really exciting aspect of this community,” Groffman said.


9 posted on 05/22/2012 4:07:40 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Doogle

Exactly!
‘EPA approved products’ means products made by ‘Progressive’ political contributions.


10 posted on 05/22/2012 4:15:26 PM PDT by griswold3 (Big Government does not tolerate rivals.)
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To: ColdOne
Guess NASCAR will be tuning up their cars and making sure their tires are properly inflated.

EPA-NASCAR is like Oprah-David Dukes.

11 posted on 05/22/2012 4:16:36 PM PDT by N. Theknow (Kennedys=Can't drive, can't ski, can't fly, can't skipper a boat, but they know what's best for you.)
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To: ColdOne
This has got to be a joke! NASCAR and the EPA? WTF

"NASCAR and the EPA are teaming to promote green products."

This should read. NASCAR and the EPA are teaming up to promote socialism.

Please tell me all of NASCAR is not going for this.

NASCAR can't be that dumb.

12 posted on 05/22/2012 4:19:00 PM PDT by precisionshootist
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To: griswold3

there’s no dot connecting with these crooks..it’s all layed out and protected by the media


13 posted on 05/22/2012 4:22:41 PM PDT by Doogle (((USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated)))
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To: N. Theknow
EPA-NASCAR is like Oprah David in Daisy Dukes.

Fixed it.

14 posted on 05/22/2012 4:25:03 PM PDT by Never on my watch (I'd rather light a candle than curse the flatulence.)
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To: griswold3
EPA approved products = CRAP!

Like the "planet friendly" cleaning products junk we tried, CRAP!

I bet not one EPA/EARTH FRIENDLY GREENIE-WIENIE A-HOLE is in the grandstands at ANY NASCAR race!

15 posted on 05/22/2012 4:25:44 PM PDT by jaz.357 (tag-line on vacation.)
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To: Ben Mugged

I suggest ALMS, WSB, MotoGP, WRC, BTCC, Motorola Cup or any of the other motorsports that are actually far better and more interesting to watch than... left turn... left turn... left turn... left turn... NASCAR, but yet have been crowded out of the limelight by that so-called sport. It’s getting to the point where it’s about as ‘real’ as pro wrestling.

In these other sports, people turn left as well as right, they brake and accelerate hard several times during a lap, and they actually discourage random wrecking. Oh, and you can actually buy vehicles related to what you see running in those series. Unlike so-called ‘stock car’, which uses cars you can’t buy in a showroom.


16 posted on 05/22/2012 4:25:44 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Red Badger; steelyourfaith

Ping.


17 posted on 05/22/2012 4:25:44 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: ColdOne
Ok, I just read this again and my head just about exploded. "Teaming up to promote environmental awareness".

Attention NASCAR, the EPA does not give a rats azz about the environment. THEY ARE COMMUNISTS AND THEY ARE THE ENEMY!

Is that clear enough?

18 posted on 05/22/2012 4:27:07 PM PDT by precisionshootist
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To: ColdOne
They need to start building ramps at Talledega, Watkins Glen, and Indy.....this way, it will be easier for the drivers to jump the shark.

Why does every American institution have to have an agenda nowadays? NASCAR used to be about tuning up your car to be fast enough to outrun the law....so that you could participate in another great American past time - avoiding taxes {liquor}. Then it was about taking STOCK cars, tuning them up and demonstrating the performance of (semi)production cars. Now it is about all cars being the same, restrictor plates, and limp wristed go-green faggotry. I guess NASCAR decided to turn left off the track too. What garbage.

Be no wonder suped-up eurotrash rice burners are all the rage.....at least you can go down to the dealership and by one.

/rant

19 posted on 05/22/2012 4:30:32 PM PDT by Repeat Offender (While the wicked stand confounded, call me with Thy Saints surrounded)
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20 posted on 05/22/2012 4:42:36 PM PDT by TheOldLady
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To: ColdOne

I can’t wait for hybrid racing.


21 posted on 05/22/2012 4:54:39 PM PDT by razorback-bert (I'm in shape. Round is a shape isn't it?)
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To: Repeat Offender

NASCAR’s always been prone to that sort of ‘faggotry.’ It’s just taken the fans a lot longer to realize the stupidity.

1. When NASCAR goes to Watkins Glen or Sears Point/Infineon, they’re running on the same track as other series have to. Actual stock-based cars are FASTER at those road courses than the NASCRASH cars. Their solution: Stick heads in sand, pretend it’s still the 1970s and ban the adoption of newer technologies. Like fuel injection, antilock brakes, etc., etc. But then claim that you’re all for safety despite making crashes more likely.

2. NASCAR has always been fond of banning things that show them up. Until Toyota showed up, the only NASCAR win by a foreign manufacturer was Jaguar at Linden Airport in 1954 in an almost completely stock XK120. Jaguar took first, second, fourth, fifth and sixth. The two lead Jaguars lapped the entire field. NASCAR’s response? You’d think that they’d shrug and tell people to build/bring better cars if they wanted to win, right?

Nope. NASCAR’s solution was: More ovals, less road courses (so the shortcomings of the cars wouldn’t be as exposed) and a ban on any foreign marque ever competing again. Cute, huh? And these are the people the fans support????


22 posted on 05/22/2012 4:56:25 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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This is also why the American car companies had to work so hard to catch up with foreign technology after the 70s - while they were out running the same old crap on the same old ovals and not really increasing their knowledge base by racing in NASCRASH, everyone else was out running cars in DTM, BTCC, WRC, and countless other road and rally series using what they learned and tested there directly on their retail products. Their R&D dollars got to work twice - once for R&D but at the same time that R&D effort also did marketing!


23 posted on 05/22/2012 5:00:29 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra
Agree for sure. I too am an old dog who fondling recalls the “good old days” of NASCAR. It was lots more fun when there was actually some variety in the manufacturers cars and engines. Now, even though NASCAR likes to present themselves as offering competition between the Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, all the bird-cage bodies are the same as are the engines. Yep, ain't today's string racing exciting! Not.....
24 posted on 05/22/2012 5:03:44 PM PDT by snoringbear (Government is the Pimp,)
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To: Bryan24

Running alcohol also produces more pollution and the lose mpg because of the lower energy content.


25 posted on 05/22/2012 5:08:33 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

That’s what my husband days. Use to watch the racing for years. We’d go to races as well. Gone our the good old days!


26 posted on 05/22/2012 5:15:42 PM PDT by Halls (Jesus is my Lord and Savior)
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To: Spktyr
I agree. It is just like when they banned the HEMI engine for a year because Chevy and Ford couldn't compete. Then they said cars couldn't be larger than a certain displacement with spoilers/fins larger than xxxx.

I quit watching Not Actually Stock CARs quite some time ago.

27 posted on 05/22/2012 5:17:20 PM PDT by Repeat Offender (While the wicked stand confounded, call me with Thy Saints surrounded)
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To: ColdOne

Someone posted a story not too long ago about the woes of NASCAR and its declining fan base due to the “improving” Obama economy. These green measures are going to cost NASCAR fans even more green from their wallets. That should drive the fan base to even lower numbers.


28 posted on 05/22/2012 5:27:32 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: snoringbear

Gone are the days of real manufacturer competition! Much less the days when guys challenged and bent the rules! The rules would say something like, “You can only have a 20 gallon fuel tank.” Smokey would put an inflated basketball in his tanks. 20 gallons. Then he’d deflate the b-ball and put in 23 gallons. The best trick was beating that restriction by adding about 10 miles of fuel line! He’d add gallons of fuel, until they caught him and changed the rules again!
Things used to be fun,,,, now they’re boring!


29 posted on 05/22/2012 5:30:22 PM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: jaz.357

You are mistaken.

“EPA approved products = CRAP!”

Wrong!

EPA approved products = EXPENSIVE CRAP!


30 posted on 05/22/2012 5:32:25 PM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: ColdOne

I am predicting that within five years NASCAR will be running Chevy Volts and the Toyota Prius. Every institution is surrendering to the criminal government.


31 posted on 05/22/2012 5:32:41 PM PDT by Jay Redhawk
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To: Repeat Offender

“I quit watching Not Actually Stock CARs quite some time ago.”

I don’t think that there is a single nut or bolt on those cars that can actually be found on the cars that they look like. Even the short blocks (if this is true anymore) are tweeked or “special”.


32 posted on 05/22/2012 5:35:05 PM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: ColdOne

Personally, I don’t follo Nascar, but the thought of Chevy Volts covered in ads racing around a track just isn’t going to draw many fans.


33 posted on 05/22/2012 5:40:59 PM PDT by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: the invisib1e hand

NASCAR is about everything wrong with the country. I was a fan years ago but no more. They’ll be offering stock before long.

I’ll watch a good Moto motorcycle race before NASCRAP.


34 posted on 05/22/2012 5:47:10 PM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: ColdOne

I don’t need NASCAR to “educate” me about the environmental scam. I’ve been a race fan forever. They are really pushing it right now. Maybe it’s time for me to TAKE MY GREEN and MoveOn. If I want any crap from the morons at NASCAR, I’ll unscrew their heads and dip it out. Are you listening NASCAR? I find it a little odd that they put Gordon in a “Drive To End Hunger” car the same year they started burning ethanol in their fuel tanks. Obviously, somebody has their head stuck up their ...


35 posted on 05/22/2012 5:50:19 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Dumb, dependent and Democrat is no way to go through life. - Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas)
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To: ColdOne

When they turned their backs on the most basic premise of racing, that of the best drivers/pit crews advance to the big show and hired a “diversity” queen to quiet the race card dealers Sharpton/Jackson they were on the wrong path.

Now getting into bed with the Enviro-Nazis is the final straw. I can find a lot to do with the 4 extra hours every Sunday.

Should Mitt grow a set and actually fight to win this election the first thing he needs to do is put the EPA Nazis in a much smaller cage. They have grown way too big.


36 posted on 05/22/2012 5:53:22 PM PDT by Wurlitzer (Nothing says "ignorance" like Islam!)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

My favorite was when they confiscated Smokey’s car after a race and accused him of cheating. NASCAR removed the entire fuel system and fuel tank. When they were done, Smokey cussed ‘em out, jumped in the car, fired it up and drove it back to the garage. LOL!


37 posted on 05/22/2012 5:58:52 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Dumb, dependent and Democrat is no way to go through life. - Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas)
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To: ColdOne

NASCAR can piss off. They crammed Michelle Obama down the throats of Homestead fans last year, along with that moron’s wife...”Dr.” Jill Biden.

Now they’re putting Tony Stewart at the White House to smooch Obama’s ass?

Cram it, NASCAR. Hard and deep.

Maybe I’ll start watching Formula 1.


38 posted on 05/22/2012 6:09:09 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: ColdOne
sustainable concessions

What does that mean? If you get a soda, everyone around you gets one too? Or buy a hot dog and it will grow into a pig that will make even more hot dogs to feed kids in some country we can't spell? Or eating popcorn, I can grow corn in my bloomers for the next year?

What on earth is a sustainable concession?

39 posted on 05/22/2012 6:09:54 PM PDT by PistolPaknMama
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To: Repeat Offender

Here’s some of the spectacular racing we don’t get to see because of NASCRASH.

Australian V8 Supercars - where locally produced V8 RWD cars (yes, they still make those down there - Holden/GM and Ford) are modified and fight it out - these guys are really doing what NASCAR pretends to be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94_9qO19z-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW6rwAkCxKE

Unlike FakeCAR, you can actually buy those cars there.

The Germans have their own viciously contested racing (it’s dubbed in English for overseas broadcast, I just can’t find a good example of it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEwbicpzhXw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc16h-aM89o&feature=related

You can buy these cars too.

ALMS, which is the American extension of the Le Mans racing series. It combines prototype/purpose built racing cars in their own classes on the track at the same time as production cars in their own classes. Some of the best racing anywhere. By the rules, the general public has to be able to buy any car model in the production classes. And no, the prototype classes don’t always win. Better still, this is endurance racing, so they run day and night and have to have functional light systems. And they run no matter what - rain, shine, whatever. Not on broadcast TV because of NASCRASH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqH-6U4Sm0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNtbaMadX4

Even the Brits, who don’t really have a car industry any more, still have production car classes (and Ford’s smaller US models are now the direct beneficiaries of this.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0LjDGouEg8

One of the best final laps fight EVER, courtesy of MotoGP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivx2IfzYHp4&feature=related


40 posted on 05/22/2012 6:10:10 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: ColdOne

NASCAR and the EPA. It ain’t gonna end well


41 posted on 05/22/2012 6:12:25 PM PDT by liberateUS
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To: The Antiyuppie

They don’t even vaguely resemble a production car any more. The ‘CAR OF TOMORROW’ they introduced a little while ago has a standardized outline that looks like nothing on the market today.

The short blocks aren’t based on anything in production any more either. They vaguely resemble a Gen I or II Small Block Chevy, but we’re at Gen III now out here in the real world and the only thing that has in common is the bore spacing and the number of cylinders.


42 posted on 05/22/2012 6:15:58 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

“In these other sports, people turn left as well as right, they brake and accelerate hard several times during a lap,”


Ah, once again the ignorance of alleged race fans shows it ugly head.

I suppose you can demonstrate that a right turn is more difficult than a left turn.

As a former oval dirt track driver, I challenge you to go a hundred laps on maybe a half mile oval track and then shoot off your big mouth about left turns.

To enlighten the “left turns are easy crowd”, the reason for an oval track is two fold. Yes, it reduces the foot print and associated cost of the track, but much more importantly it allows the fans to see most if not all of the action. The morons at Indy sure screwed that up the the stands on the inside of the front straight.

Road racing does add the element of shifting, I will give you that. However, unless you are watching it on TV it sucks as you can only see a small segment of the track. I love F1 or Moto GP, but only on TV.

I suppose somehow you can prove a Cup car does not brake and accelerate at the short tracks like Martinsville. Cup cars have to operate on a wide range of mostly oval tracks of various lengths, banking and a few road courses.

NASCAR has gone into the dumpers but it has nothing to do with left/right turns or braking and accelerating. It has to do with boring cars and drivers spending 450 miles playing it safe so as to be there at the end.

I have stated many times, NASCAR needs to award championship points for every lap and bonus points for the last lap to force hard racing the entire race.

Funny the Indy and F1 drivers seem to have trouble handling all those simple left turns when driving a high HP but very heavy car without all the fancy electronics and aerodynamics. You will find NASCAR drivers are among the upper echelon in racing BECAUSE their cars don’t have all the bells and do funnies to assist them.


43 posted on 05/22/2012 6:18:09 PM PDT by Wurlitzer (Nothing says "ignorance" like Islam!)
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To: SoFloFreeper; Wurlitzer; ImJustAnotherOkie; FlingWingFlyer; Dr. Bogus Pachysandra; snoringbear; ...

See post 40. True competition is alive and well, just not in NASCRASH.


44 posted on 05/22/2012 6:19:12 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Never on my watch

You can’t fault Tony for meeting with Obama as a winner of a major sport, like all other athletes do that win major events.


45 posted on 05/22/2012 6:23:05 PM PDT by ican'tbelieveit (School is prison for children who have commited the crime of being born. (attr: St_Thomas_Aquinas))
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To: liberateUS

Bingo! Once the commie libs get their foot in the door... They’ve been after NASCAR for a long time. NASCAR has just made a big mistake. Bill France Sr. and Bill Jr. would have told them to take a hike.


46 posted on 05/22/2012 6:23:40 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Dumb, dependent and Democrat is no way to go through life. - Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas)
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To: Wurlitzer

If it’s so hard, why do the “NASCAR Driving Experiences” where you get to pilot such a car around a track take only a little while to instruct would be operators on how it’s done, whereas it can take a day or more to get a road racing instructee up to speed, hm?

NASCAR is a form of racing, a retarded form. Left turns only are boring to many, this writer included.

Yes, a Cup car does brake and accelerate at the short tracks such as Martinsville, but nothing like a car does at, say, LeMans or even Laguna Seca. Watching a Cup car tiptoe through the corkscrew at LS is hilarious.

A more important point in terms of getting manufacturer participation and keeping it there - what does NASCAR contribute to the production cars and therefore the bottom line? There hasn’t been any R&D fruit from that series in over 20 years.

Another point is how concerned NASCAR is about safety, or how they claim they are. Yet they won’t do something simple that would prevent many accidents. Such as mandating a brake light, which would get rid of so many rear-end crashes.


47 posted on 05/22/2012 6:28:36 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

“If it’s so hard, why do the “NASCAR Driving Experiences” where you get to pilot such a car around a track take only a little while to instruct would be operators on how it’s done, whereas it can take a day or more to get a road racing instructee up to speed, hm?”


That statement is almost too stupid to warrant a reply. If you can actually read English I did admit shifting was an added element to road racing. From a fan AT THE TRACK standpoint it still sucks.

If you think anyone achieves racing speed in a day, week, month you know nothing about racing. The NASCAR experience is NICE but nothing like the real thing.

I have driven many types of race cars some with exotic aerodynamics and electronic traction controls etc and by far the most difficult cars are those similar to NASCAR with minimal aerodynamics and only maybe some brake bias adjustments. The added weight, without all the do funnies makes for a car that only a very experienced driver can handle. Just look at the problems the Montoya seems to have in the Cup cars. Danica? Well if she had male bits, she would be driving go karts.

If you cannot comprehend that then the problem is not with the cup cars but with you.


48 posted on 05/22/2012 6:55:16 PM PDT by Wurlitzer (Nothing says "ignorance" like Islam!)
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To: Wurlitzer

Who said anything about achieving speed? I’m just pointing out that in equal ‘fans can emulate drivers’ events, it takes a short period of time to get people to go around the oval, yet it can take half a day to get people ready to go around, say, Mid-Ohio.

Difficulty in driving FOR NO APPARENT REASON does not automatically make for a superior form of racing. If this were so, semi-truck racing would be the pre-eminent motorsport.

Danica made a decent mid-level touring car driver but I agree she’s over-rated. I’d also point out that a number of Americans from NASCAR have tried to transition to F1 over the years and they pretty much all failed. So that’s no qualifier either.


49 posted on 05/22/2012 9:51:18 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Wurlitzer

Also, you want to address why they can’t be bothered to fit a $10 brake light to the cars to avoid accidents?


50 posted on 05/22/2012 9:52:42 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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